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US$275 Budget advice: Koss Pro DJ100 vs Denon AH-D1100 vs Sony ZX700 + Amp for B'day present for... - Page 2

post #16 of 30

All headphone amps & jacks can drive 600ohm headphones.  Just a question of volume.  You're still not utilizing the key piece of information here.  I know it's tricky.  It took me a while, too.  The only limitation with a high impedance headphone is how sensitive it is, not its impedance.  ANY jack can drive a 600ohm headphone; it's just how loud.  Low impedance headphones, though, almost ALWAYS need a near-zero-ohm jack/amp and will tend to sound like they are more vieled, lacking dynamics, rolled off in the lows, and/or especially lacking punch in the bottom end.  Driving a low-ohm headphone on even a hi-end but unspecified-impedance jack (its inherent impedance, not what it's rated to be able to drive... that's pretty much meaningless) and complaining about veil or a lack of tightness is more likely indicative of the jack.  Otherwise, the headphone will need a response and character that at least partially compensates for bad matching with higher impedance jacks.  So yeah, a Grado SR60 might never sound veiled on any jack, but that's due to the fact of its excessive forward upper ranges.  Its dynamics will still be affected, though frequency balance and apparent total loss of punch in the bass might not be noticeable because it's so thin to begin with.  Again, I have not heard the KRK 6400, but its measurements look definitely above average.  Maybe the jack drove it just fine, but I keep seeing this issue again and again with people using things like the Fiio E9 to drive a low-impedance can.  That's bad.  E7, Grado clones, etc...  those are all better matches.  Again, ignore the "will drive ### impedance headphones" spec.  It means zilch.  That's like phono cartridge manufacturers giving a broad range of capacitance tolerance.  Unless it's an ultra low-inductance Moving Iron or a high-output Moving Coil, there's just one particular capacitance the phono stage has (unless it's adjustable) and you need to know it to match the right carts & cables (not voodoo, by the way as we're not talking line-level signals).  The idea that it's actually high impedance headphones that need the current and electrical damping to be driven without adverse consequences is a myth that's the result of the old Sennheiser signature sound.  They might need a lot of voltage and headroom, but that's it.


Edited by Reticuli2 - 9/12/11 at 3:21pm

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post #17 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli2 View Post

All headphone amps & jacks can drive 600ohm headphones.  Just a question of volume.  You're still not utilizing the key piece of information here.  I know it's tricky.  It took me a while, too.  The only limitation with a high impedance headphone is how sensitive it is, not its impedance.  ANY jack can drive a 600ohm headphone; it's just how loud.  Low impedance headphones, though, almost ALWAYS need a near-zero-ohm jack/amp and will tend to sound like they are more vieled, lacking dynamics, rolled off in the lows, and/or especially lacking punch in the bottom end.  Driving a low-ohm headphone on even a hi-end but unspecified-impedance jack (its inherent impedance, not what it's rated to be able to drive... that's pretty much meaningless) and complaining about veil or a lack of tightness is more likely indicative of the jack.  Otherwise, the headphone will need a response and character that at least partially compensates for bad matching with higher impedance jacks.  So yeah, a Grado SR60 might never sound veiled on any jack, but that's due to the fact of its excessive forward upper ranges.  Its dynamics will still be affected, though frequency balance and apparent total loss of punch in the bass might not be noticeable because it's so thin to begin with.  Again, I have not heard the KRK 6400, but its measurements look definitely above average.  Maybe the jack drove it just fine, but I keep seeing this issue again and again with people using things like the Fiio E9 to drive a low-impedance can.  That's bad.  E7, Grado clones, etc...  those are all better matches.  Again, ignore the "will drive ### impedance headphones" spec.  It means zilch.  That's like phono cartridge manufacturers giving a broad range of capacitance tolerance.  Unless it's an ultra low-inductance Moving Iron or a high-output Moving Coil, there's just one particular capacitance the phono stage has (unless it's adjustable) and you need to know it to match the right carts & cables (not voodoo, by the way as we're not talking line-level signals).  The idea that it's actually high impedance headphones that need the current and electrical damping to be driven without adverse consequences is a myth that's the result of the old Sennheiser signiture sound.  They might need a lot of voltage and headroom, but that's it.


Thanks for the info smily_headphones1.gif

I'm still having doubts about what to buy and at the same point as the start...
post #18 of 30

Heya,

 

Denon D1100 are good. If you can swing the budget, get her the D2000's though. It's not that much more, look for a sale. They're a near perfect mid-tier headphone. Seriously.

 

Oh, and on the tangent of this thread concerning the KRK KNS series headphones. I will confirm the graphs are completely false. They are not at all representing what you will hear on the KNS monitors. They look like they have flat to colored bass, but they do not at all have that. They are in fact the most bass shy headphone I've ever heard. They do not have impact and are not warm in the slightest. These are very much monitors. They have clear mids and highs. Very clear, very transparent, and absolutely unforgiving. You will hear noise floor it's so unforgiving of even the circuits. Again, these are seriously monitors. They are not musical. And they are not warm and bassy at all. They're excellent for extremely clear mids and highs. They are decently comfortable. But again, they are not a headphone that will work for most people looking for a musical headphone with any level of warmth as they lack that entirely. Anyhow, my point, please avoid the graphs. These headphones do not at all sound like the graphs. It blew me away how off the graphs were.

 

Very best,

 

 

post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post

Heya,

 

Denon D1100 are good. If you can swing the budget, get her the D2000's though. It's not that much more, look for a sale. They're a near perfect mid-tier headphone. Seriously.

 

Oh, and on the tangent of this thread concerning the KRK KNS series headphones. I will confirm the graphs are completely false. They are not at all representing what you will hear on the KNS monitors. They look like they have flat to colored bass, but they do not at all have that. They are in fact the most bass shy headphone I've ever heard. They do not have impact and are not warm in the slightest. These are very much monitors. They have clear mids and highs. Very clear, very transparent, and absolutely unforgiving. You will hear noise floor it's so unforgiving of even the circuits. Again, these are seriously monitors. They are not musical. And they are not warm and bassy at all. They're excellent for extremely clear mids and highs. They are decently comfortable. But again, they are not a headphone that will work for most people looking for a musical headphone with any level of warmth as they lack that entirely. Anyhow, my point, please avoid the graphs. These headphones do not at all sound like the graphs. It blew me away how off the graphs were.

 

Very best,

 

 


Haha, I like your honesty normal_smile%20.gif I much prefer it when people are not afraid of holding back criticism of any headphone, even favorites.

I actually felt that the 6400 had a tiny bit of bass impact, but it could be due to more clamping pressure or pretty much anything. They actually have enough bass for my music. I don't listen to anything all that bass heavy.

Less bass than your AD700?! basshead.gif I don't know if I agree with that if so. I do think the AD700 and the first RE0 (IEM) get my vote as the headphones with the least amount of bass EVER! Strangely enough, the bass is better on the AD700 if you're lucky and actually get enough clamping force.

 

I'd rather give up some bass for more mids and detail I guess. Very, very few headphones have too little bass for me. Just the two above.

I find them musical for me, which is strange because almost NOBODY has felt this. Oh well, I get I'm just the strange one! I love the 6400 mostly for vocals.

When I try them again I'll see how my sources, amps and cables can effect the sound, if at all. Maybe my Headroom Micro Amp seems to add in a tiny bit of bass. Doubt it. I bet the old PS1 I often use would be great for them since it's a warm sounding CD player that surprisingly sounds very good! I love it for my K501.

 

BTW if you felt the 6400 didn't have enough bass, wait until you hear the 8400! It was even worse for me, but supposedly has more sub-bass.

 

I'm glad KRK made them the way they did. For picking apart music and finding flaws, I think I like them just the way they are.

 


Edited by tdockweiler - 9/12/11 at 5:33pm
post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 

So I think that the Denon would make a good choice.... I will see if can try it anywhere :)

 

The fact is that I'm curious about the D2000, but here in Spain costs almost twice the price of the D1100.

post #21 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLaRe View Post

So I think that the Denon would make a good choice.... I will see if can try it anywhere :)

 

The fact is that I'm curious about the D2000, but here in Spain costs almost twice the price of the D1100.


Heya,

 

Oh you gotta check the D2000's if given the chance. If you were in the States, I'd mail them to you right now to test for a week or so. They are an amazing headphone for their tier. I'm gushing like a kid about them, it's goofy, but they're literally that good.

 

Very best,

 

post #22 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post




Heya,

 

Oh you gotta check the D2000's if given the chance. If you were in the States, I'd mail them to you right now to test for a week or so. They are an amazing headphone for their tier. I'm gushing like a kid about them, it's goofy, but they're literally that good.

 

Very best,

 


Thanks man, but I´m in Spain hehehehehe
 

Do you prefer them to the Shure´s? Because I´m also considering getting her the SRH-840 or the 940 if I decide to step up the budget.

 

Thanks for your help mate.

 

post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLaRe View Post




Thanks man, but I´m in Spain hehehehehe
 

Do you prefer them to the Shure´s? Because I´m also considering getting her the SRH-840 or the 940 if I decide to step up the budget.

 

Thanks for your help mate.

 


Heya,

 

I think for overall coverage, overall balance, the D2000 takes it. It just does everything. It doesn't do everything perfectly, but it does everything well enough that if you wanted a "cover every genre" headphone, it would be that headphone. I love the SRH940 for female vocals and acoustic specifically, and a bit of folk, indie and jazz, but not much else as other cans just do better for me. The D2000 on the other hand is good for everything, and a master of a few genres, but ultimately just great for all genres. This is merely my opinion of course. But it really is a great headphone, easy to drive, and gives you so much coverage and value for a single headphone purchase (which is rare for non-high-end). I can't recommend it enough, even though I love so many headphones.

 

Very best,

 

post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 

Finally I will buy her the Koss Pro DJ100. I´ve been trying these this afternoon and love them since I put them on. Not only the sound amazing, but also they look awesome. I´m also considering getting one for me as portable. A real killer for the 90€ price tag.

 

I also tried the Denon AH-D2000 and the Audio Technica ATH-A900. The former were really comfy and good sounding, very flat and neutral sound, but not as detailed as I expected. The latter was a total mess in the whole frequency range.

 

Now the doubt is the amp.... Fiio E11, E7 or E6?

post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLaRe View Post

Finally I will buy her the Koss Pro DJ100. I´ve been trying these this afternoon and love them since I put them on. Not only the sound amazing, but also they look awesome. I´m also considering getting one for me as portable. A real killer for the 90€ price tag.

 

I also tried the Denon AH-D2000 and the Audio Technica ATH-A900. The former were really comfy and good sounding, very flat and neutral sound, but not as detailed as I expected. The latter was a total mess in the whole frequency range.

 

Now the doubt is the amp.... Fiio E11, E7 or E6?

 

I'd also suggest getting a pair of M50 pads too for them if you can! The DJ100 is one of my rare headphones that seems to improve the more I use it. I suggest that when you are sleeping, shove them in a drawer and play music non-stop fairly loud.

The M50 pads improved the bass, soundstage and treble. Sounds even a bit more clear. 

 

I just got in the E11 for my DJ100 today and will know more soon. The E6 might be good, but I haven't heard it. I don't suggest the E5 with the DJ100 unless you have a larger sized player. Not sure how similar the E6 is to the E5. E7 should be more than enough.

There's also the PA2V2, but I haven't heard it, but it's cheap and may take a little longer to get.
 

 

post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 

I have to say that I´m a convinced disbeliever regarding the burn-in process, so I won´t put them in drawer :)

 

I think that the E11 will be fine, but also will check if I can get the PA2V2 in Europe without custom taxes.

 

Thank you guys for the help, will update with the amp election.

post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLaRe View Post

I have to say that I´m a convinced disbeliever regarding the burn-in process, so I won´t put them in drawer :)

 

I think that the E11 will be fine, but also will check if I can get the PA2V2 in Europe without custom taxes.

 

Thank you guys for the help, will update with the amp election.


Ok, so don't put them in the drawer and instead put them on your head and see if they get even better in a few weeks biggrin.gif

I guess I'm saying that if they sound great NOW, there is no need, but it's nice to do anyway. I'm all for making a headphone possibly sound better while I sleep!

If it doesn't change, then no big deal for me. I'm one that almost never suggests headphone burn-in, but I'd be lying if I said the DJ100 didn't improve with it or even after lots of use.

95% of my collection gets zero burn in..just while on my head.

 

Sometime I'd like to find a non-believer of burn-in to take the DJ100 test and see if they notice any changes. I always try to prove myself wrong when it comes to things I believe in. I even did that with cables.

I just hope I never get to the point where I upgrade my power cables for improved sound normal_smile%20.gif Then I know I may have lost my marbles..

 

post #28 of 30

The E5 shouldn't really be recommended to anyone except people with high-impedance jacks who just want to find out if their headphones improve with near-zero-ohm.  It's not a very high performance headphone amp.  Any DAP that already has a very low impedance jack will probably perform as well or maybe better, so I'd rather spend the money on another Clip or something... or better yet, on a Grado clone, E7, or O2, in order of price and performance.  If you need EQ, DAC, and portability, the E7 is apparently impossible to beat at its current price.  It's still a good buy even if you just need the amp and definitely has better measurements than the jacks on DAPs, laptops, and iPods.

 

Edit: Got the KRK 6400s on right now. Freakishly extended up top. Maybe even a bright tone overall. I don't have any jacks that are near-zero-ohm, so it's no surprise they lack damping, drive, control, and tightness in the lows when they're only 35ohms and measure pretty flat. They're almost as insensitive as the Fostex t50rp. You need a monster amp I suspect for these. Headphone cable is perhaps the most microphonic I've ever seen. I'm also curious as to what Tyll did to get such a wide range of bass responses when positioning them. They seem absurdly sensitive to positioning for a completely closed headphone from his graphs. Were they high, low, back, forward? Maybe the memory foam improves that aspect.


Edited by Reticuli2 - 9/15/11 at 3:42pm
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post


Heya,

 

I think for overall coverage, overall balance, the D2000 takes it. It just does everything. It doesn't do everything perfectly, but it does everything well enough that if you wanted a "cover every genre" headphone, it would be that headphone. I love the SRH940 for female vocals and acoustic specifically, and a bit of folk, indie and jazz, but not much else as other cans just do better for me. The D2000 on the other hand is good for everything, and a master of a few genres, but ultimately just great for all genres. This is merely my opinion of course. But it really is a great headphone, easy to drive, and gives you so much coverage and value for a single headphone purchase (which is rare for non-high-end). I can't recommend it enough, even though I love so many headphones.

 

Very best,

 



agree hands down with this man's sentiment.  It should be part of the "World's best headphones" list for price and flexibility.  No matter what I try, nothing brings me back home like the D2000s.

post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli2 View Post

The E5 shouldn't really be recommended to anyone except people with high-impedance jacks who just want to find out if their headphones improve with near-zero-ohm.  It's not a very high performance headphone amp.  Any DAP that already has a very low impedance jack will probably perform as well or maybe better, so I'd rather spend the money on another Clip or something... or better yet, on a Grado clone, E7, or O2, in order of price and performance.  If you need EQ, DAC, and portability, the E7 is apparently impossible to beat at its current price.  It's still a good buy even if you just need the amp and definitely has better measurements than the jacks on DAPs, laptops, and iPods.

 

Edit: Got the KRK 6400s on right now. Freakishly extended up top. Maybe even a bright tone overall. I don't have any jacks that are near-zero-ohm, so it's no surprise they lack damping, drive, control, and tightness in the lows when they're only 35ohms and measure pretty flat. They're almost as insensitive as the Fostex t50rp. You need a monster amp I suspect for these. Headphone cable is perhaps the most microphonic I've ever seen. I'm also curious as to what Tyll did to get such a wide range of bass responses when positioning them. They seem absurdly sensitive to positioning for a completely closed headphone from his graphs. Were they high, low, back, forward? Maybe the memory foam improves that aspect.




You seem to take a very scientific approach to the matching of hardware, which makes sense. Do you think an amp would benefit DJ100s paired with a J3? If so, which one?

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