I just think the UM Miracle sounded different to the other UM models and any headphone I've heard in a "3D sound processing" way and the effects were not subtle, for example it was a few levels beyond the CK10.
 
I can only assume this is due to the fact that it has 6 drivers.
 
 
While I'm sure the FI-BA-SS has amazing sound quality, ljokerl called the soundstage "pedestrian".
 
I can only assume this is due to the fact it has 1 driver.
 
 

While I haven't heard the Miracles, I have heard the 6 driver JH13 demos and these do nothing of that 3D sort. Actually, their soundstage was overall rather limited, which was one reason why I didn't opt for the full customs. On the other hand the 3 driver SM3 have a remarkable surround feel to their presentation, so I think that 3D-effect is more likely a result of different design or tuning than of driver count.
 
Regarding the FI-BA-SS, tbo I don't know what to make of Joker's "pedestrian" attribute, as in the very same sentence he's also calling them "quite airy and spacious" and soundstage width and separation "compliment-worthy".
 
Anyway, I tend to rely on my own ears, and according to them the FADs surpass both the JH13 demos and my full custom UERM in spaciousness. I've compared the UERM and FI-BA-SS with several test tracks, and while the former have stellar separation and imaging, they render a slightly smaller soundstage than the FADs and place lead vocals noticably closer (which I quite like with Margo Timmins, but not so much with Meat Loaf .

 
What??
 
I need to hear those FAD's...
 
and again What?? @ your JH13 comment... =p
 
I'm getting a Chinese custom IEM with 6 drivers, and according to the 1 english speaking person that has heard the JH13, Miracle and CX6 (all demo units) he said the CX6 has the most intimate soundstage, but has the highest transparency...
 
Actually at times I think the EX600 could be a little more intimate, if anyone knows what I mean by that.
 
 
 

Quote:

kiteki said:

Actually at times I think the EX600 could be a little more intimate, if anyone knows what I mean by that.

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I know what you mean and it's a question of personal preference. I listen to a lot of classical orchestra and like to be placed among the audience in a big hall, a few rows back from the stage. Others prefer the ambience of a small club, first row table with the singer standing right in front of you. In my book the Sony EX1000/600 and FI-BA-SS are more suited for the former, the UERM and JH13 rather for the latter. Different strokes for different folks I guess, like with many other things in audio.

Yes, it's preference, the CK10 is more intimate, for example.
 
On the other hand, on the EX600 I enjoy using 3D effects in foobar or on my T51, since I think it responds so well to equalizers and effects, whereas for example the RE272 does not respond well to equalizers or effects, it doesn't change much.
 
I never used the "3D" setting on my T51 until the EX600, since it never sounded good, and I don't like Eq or effects I almost always use a clean signal.
 
 
I understand there's quite a few ES3X haters and UERM lovers out there which are two cornerstones to this discussion, but at the end of the day more usually does = better, [when correctly implemented] just like with my motorbike analogy.
 
A 6 cylinder motorbike might not have phase shifts and incoherence, but neither does a 6 cylinder IEM if it's been built correctly.
 
I just don't beleive the UERM can outperform the UE18Pro, and I can't really spend $2,300(!) to find out either....
 
 
 
 

Quote:

kiteki said:

I just don't beleive the UERM can outperform the UE18Pro, and I can't really spend $2,300(!) to find out either....

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The thing is that "outperform" is wide open to interpretation and (again) measured against your preferences. The UERM outperform the FI-BA-SS in fullness/lushness of their mids, which make most vocal tracks sound absolutely glorious. Switch to a delicate classical piece and the FI-BA-SS outperform the UERM in subtlety and elegance, making the latter appear obtrusive like an over-perfumed woman. Now which one has "outperformed" the other overall?

I read on a different forum once that the so called 3D soundstage of multi drivers is the result of out of phase sound reproduction due to improperly matched drivers. Not sure if that's true because I think it's hard to tell whether a headphone creates a fake sense of soundstage or whether it just accurately reproduces the sonic cues in the recordings. But I do think that a stereo recording can only sound so good through a stereo headphone. There are very clear limitations to the soundstage that a headphone can reproduce with stereo recordings. If a headphone sounds really grand, 3D and immersive in stereo, then it is possible that it indeed fakes the soundstage.

 
Quote:

james444 said:

The thing is that "outperform" is wide open to interpretation and (again) measured against your preferences. The UERM outperform the FI-BA-SS in fullness/lushness of their mids, which make most vocal tracks sound absolutely glorious. Switch to a delicate classical piece and the FI-BA-SS outperform the UERM in subtlety and elegance, making the latter appear obtrusive like an over-perfumed woman. Now which one has "outperformed" the other overall?

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Maybe the FIBASS is better at sharp-shooting, and the UERM is better at swimming, but if you put them both through all the events at the olympics, one of them will win.
 
As such, I think the UE18Pro should beat the UERM at the olympics, if you judge them both like horses before they enter the race.
 
Some people on head-fi only care about swimming, and some only about sharp-shooting, and some use crappy arenas I.E. we are all using different Dac/Amps which is causing an issue.
 
The primary issue is that whichever arena or sport it is, there is usually only 1 person in the audience, and then he leaves the arena and goes on the internet to tell people what his favorite athlete is like, and then someone in Mexico says he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
Ideally we should be using the same Dac/Amp and listening to the same material via the internet, then the audience of an event would be larger and we could talk about a product in unison.
 
 
 
 

Quote:

kiteki said:

Maybe the FIBASS is better at sharp-shooting, and the UERM is better at swimming, but if you put them both through all the events at the olympics, one of them will win.

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In order to possibly determine the absolute winner overall, you will have to give the headphones to listen to every single person on earth who can hear sufficiently well with every single music genre, recording quality, bitrate, source, amp, food, drinks, exercise program, etc. Moreover, you will have to send it to outer space to every single alien who sufficiently resembles humans for this purpose along with all the sources and the amps and possibly the foods and the drinks and the exercise programs... So it's not that simple. Our perception of what is better than something else depends on a million different factors.

 
You read the first sentence of my post and then ignored the rest.

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kiteki said:

You read the first sentence of my post and then ignored the rest.

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Because the first sentence sums up your view and the rest of the post explains it in more detail. I am not discussing your explanation, because I disagree with your overall view.
 

Quote:

pianist said:

I read on a different forum once that the so called 3D soundstage of multi drivers is the result of out of phase sound reproduction due to improperly matched drivers. Not sure if that's true because I think it's hard to tell whether a headphone creates a fake sense of soundstage or whether it just accurately reproduces the sonic cues in the recordings. But I do think that a stereo recording can only sound so good through a stereo headphone. There are very clear limitations to the soundstage that a headphone can reproduce with stereo recordings. If a headphone sounds really grand, 3D and immersive in stereo, then it is possible that it indeed fakes the soundstage.

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Interesting. Anyway, my ears don't mind fake soundstage as long as it sounds awesome. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Interesting. Anyway, my ears don't mind fake soundstage as long as it sounds awesome. 

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(sighs) Oh boy. Yes, of course. Personal preference is everything, no matter what anybody says. There is no right or wrong, good or bad, beautiful or ugly, but only what each one of us makes out things to be. For all I know, I could be the only really human in this world and everyone else could be just... oops! lol I am getting carried away here.
 
So anyway - let's get back into the discussion about why the he*l we need more drivers than 2 or 3 in BA IEMs. I say we don't or at least I don't know why we would. Arguments?
 
I like alphaman's posts BTW. Thanks a lot alphaman for your thoughtful contributions to the thread.

 
Quote:

pianist said:

 
Because the first sentence sums up your view and the rest of the post explains it in more detail. I am not discussing your explanation, because I disagree with your overall view.
 

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If you embrace subjectivity so much and don't want to form any consensus or unison listening, what is the point in these forums or being here at all?
 
 

 
Quote:

pianist said:

 
I like alphaman's posts BTW. Thanks a lot alphaman for your thoughtful contributions to the thread.

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He linked to a graph at sterophile that is drawn in mspaint of three different drivers being measured overlapped on top of eachother and is implying the strange looking nature of that picture is some kind of proof that multi-BA setups are inherently flawed and rejoicing over the science of mspaint versus subjective errata.
 
You on the other hand rejoice over subjective errata and discredit my suggestion that if we were listening to the same music on the same DAC then we wouldn't be so bitchy at eachother.
 
I also pointed out a couple patterns for example you and music_4321 have used the same custom IEM's and have similiar opinions, it's good to find patterns and be humble, don't you think you should try a different custom IEM?