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SR71B balanced INPUT? - Page 2

post #16 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post

So i guess moon audio and all the others using Coax cables for balanced setups do not know what they are doing LMFAO 

If it does not work perfectly then why is it that it floors every other balanced cable out there.

After you have tried this cable in a balanced setup that is when you have an actual opinion worth listening to.

Let me see, there are 2 people here that actually own the cable in question and say it sounds just fine and then there is someone who has never even listened to it that says it dont lol

You are yet another person here i have seen that goes around giving advice and thinks they know better about gear they have never even listened to or tried. 


Parrots, theoretically, I think Qusp's point is accurate with regard to coaxial, however, that doesn't mean it cannot be used for IC and headphone cables.  I have in front of me two crystal headphone cables (HD800 and JH13) and one interconnect and they do sound very good.  When I was at Jaben, I even tried their Crystal LOD and IC and yes my whole portable rig was wired up by Crystal and yes there is a sound difference.  Clean. natural, transparent, tight bass, smooth high are the sound characters of the Crystal cable.  

 

I think during the construction of the Piccolino cable, they really pay attention to the core and the shield to make them balance.  Keep in mind that when Crystal made the Piccolino, even though they made it in the coax format but their intention is not for coax application but use it as headphone cable.  It is specifically developed for headphone application and not for the tradition digital coax use.  That is why it can be use as balance IC.  By the way, jsut make GG a IC and let her try it out wink.gif

 

post #17 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post


Jalo do you even know what he means when he says double up, 2 Piccolino cables going to each channel thus 4 wires alltogether.
You bought your cables from Jaben and Jaben don't sell doubled up cables and I know this for a fact because before I got my batch of Piccolino I contacted Jaben regarding an 8 conductor 4 wire cable and was told they cannot do it.

Post a picture and show me what you are talking about, because from my understanding you have always had the standard cable from Jaben.


Parrots, you are right with what you said.  When I say double up I was only referring to the standard Piccolino cable does have two separate strands and each is a coax on its own.  That's all I meant.  For instance, my JH13 is terminated with the RSA SR71b balance connector, so there is one strand of cable going to the left and one goes to the right but each has a coax structure.  That is why on the RSA end it can do four stream of signals.

 

post #18 of 45

Parrots, I really wanted to see a sample of your cable.  Just so I can compare to mine to make sure they are the same.  I know from the other thread you showed pictures of the inside, but I don't know if mine has only six strands.  90 meters.  That is insane.

post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post


What Qusp means by double up is 4 different wires being used for a balanced cable rather then the 2 your cables are made with and the centre wire from each cable being used for signal so the sheilding is not soldered to any signal.


In an actual coaxial format that is true as the shielding is only a shielding.  But in the case of the Piccolino, the shielding is actually used as another signal stream, otherwise, the Piccolino cannot be used as a headphone cable as it require a return signal in the case of a balance use.

 


Edited by Jalo - 9/15/11 at 11:59am
post #20 of 45

Parrots, can I buy that one shoe from you?  Can't cost more than $10.00 bucks, right?biggrin.gif  That pic is so cool.  Hey I thought you made a charm as a choke on the Crystal?  I am thinking of making a diamond charm for my cable also.  Can you post that picture again?

post #21 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post


Yes that I know but what he is saying is that got a balanced cable you cannot use the sheilding for a signal otherwise it would nit sound right and instead of using the shielding for the signal you need another 2 wires and just use the centre wires from those so intend of the 2 wires we have with the Piccolino we would need 4 and according to him our balanced cables do not sound right because they are not made with 4 wires and he says thus without ever listening to it .


Yea, Qusp was thinking a straight coax cable which the Piccolino is not hence he didn't think about the shielding as another core.  Crystal is a very high end cable company and they have done a lot of research on their cables.  So I do not know the reason behind the difference in strand count between the core and the shielding but this much I know they have to measure the difference in impedance and other factors.  Ask yourself, do you hear any channel imbalance with your cable? I do not.

 

post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalo View Post




Yea, Qusp was thinking a straight coax cable which the Piccolino is not hence he didn't think about the shielding as another core.  Crystal is a very high end cable company and they have done a lot of research on their cables.  So I do not know the reason behind the difference in strand count between the core and the shielding but this much I know they have to measure the difference in impedance and other factors.  Ask yourself, do you hear any channel imbalance with your cable? I do not.

 


no Jalo, you are not understanding what i'm saying. yes its excellent for single ended connections, possibly the best ive tried for the portable arena, but unless you use 4 coaxial strands for a stereo signal it is not ideal for balanced. you guys really should read up on why balanced connections are used and why they work as well as they do. ive already covered that on the first page and included a photo of crystal cables own balanced cable which uses 2 coaxial strands per channel in a twisted pair just as i describe, i think they probably know how to use teir wire the best dont you think? 

 

the shielding isnt another core, crystal cables is a standard coaxial type cable, just made with excellent materials. it has 2 conductors, so with single ended connections you can use the outside for ground and it works very well, but balanced although having 2 conductors per channel, needs them to be balanced, in gauge to do its job, just as the balanced circuit in the dac and amp needs to be symmetrical to do its job. they should be twisted so any interference strikes both equally which coax will never be. it will work very well again if you use 4 strands, or you could conceivably use the 2 thin inner conductors for one channel and the 2 outer conductors for the other vchannel, but then the 2 channels would have different impedance and neither would be shielded. it will electrically function using only 2, but it will not be using the balanced circuit as designed. please look up common mode rejection ratio for balanced audio

 


Edited by qusp - 9/15/11 at 1:38pm
post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post


Lol you wish, with those laces it's now worth $1000 lol
Yeah I used a diamond encrusted charm but unfortunately I sold that actual cable but will be making a similar one soon, I might have the picture in my photo album.
I'm currently working on making my JH-3A cable which will be awesome, the wire is now with the overmoulder having some clear OM connectors like the JH/Whiplash cables have on them.


Hehehe, If I were you, I wouldn't cut the crystal until I know how the JH3a turns out.

 

post #24 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalo View Post




Hehehe, If I were you, I wouldn't cut the crystal until I know how the JH3a turns out.

 


+1
post #25 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post




no Jalo, you are not understanding what i'm saying. yes its excellent for single ended connections, possibly the best ive tried for the portable arena, but unless you use 4 coaxial strands for a stereo signal it is not ideal for balanced. you guys really should read up on why balanced connections are used and why they work as well as they do. ive already covered that on the first page and included a photo of crystal cables own balanced cable which uses 2 coaxial strands per channel in a twisted pair just as i describe, i think they probably know how to use teir wire the best dont you think? 

 


Qusp, sorry for missing your point.  Are you saying using 4 coaxial strands and only using the center core for balancing application?  If that is the case you are right.  Then what do you do with the shielding on the Piccolino which is being used as a signal channel by the company?  and how can the company use only two strands of Piccolino to make a balance cable that I am using now.  I am using one right now for my JH13 in balance configuration with only two strands.  It is the same balance signal coming out of my balance dac (DB1) into the SR71b/PB2 and from my balance amp headphone out into the headphone with all four channels delivered independently from Dac to headphone.  I am not familiar with the crystal cable in your picture, may be they are different from Piccolino.  If that is the classic and true coaxial design then you are right it will need 4 strands as one cannot use the shielding as another channel for carrying signal.

 

By the way, for your information, all my amps and dacs are in balance mode except for my Pico Slim.  I do understand the balance concepts--common mode rejection, noise reduction, channel separation, phase reversal etc.  Please feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

 


Edited by Jalo - 9/15/11 at 1:57pm
post #26 of 45

here i'll do it for you balanced lines

 

the first paragraph

 

 

In telecommunications and professional audio, a balanced line or balanced signal pair is a transmission line consisting of two conductors of the same type, each of which have equal impedances along their lengths and equal impedances to ground and to other circuits. [1] The chief advantage of the balanced line format is good rejection of external noise. Common forms of balanced line are twin-lead, used for radio frequency signals and twisted pair, used for lower frequencies. They are to be contrasted to unbalanced lines, such as coaxial cable, which is designed to have its return conductor connected to ground, or circuits whose return conductor actually is ground. Balanced and unbalanced circuits can be interconnected using a transformer called a balun.

Circuits driving balanced lines must themselves be balanced to maintain the benefits of balance. This may be achieved by differential signalingtransformer coupling or by merely balancing the impedance in each conductor.

post #27 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalo View Post




Qusp, sorry for missing your point.  Are you saying using 4 coaxial strands and only using the center core for balancing application?  If that is the case you are right.  Then what do you do with the shielding on the Piccolino which is being used as a signal channel by the company?  and how can the company use only two strands of Piccolino to make a balance cable that I am using now.  I am using one right now for my JH13 in balance configuration with only two strands.  It is the same balance signal coming out of my balance dac (DB1) into the SR71b/PB2 and from my balance amp headphone out into the headphone with all four channels delivered independently from Dac to headphone.  I am not familiar with the crystal cable in your picture, may be they are different from Piccolino.  If that is the classic and true coaxial design then you are right it will need 4 strands as one cannot use the shielding as another channel for carrying signal.

 

By the way, for your information, all my amps and dacs are in balance mode except for my Pico Slim.  I do understand the balance concepts--common mode rejection, noise reduction, channel separation, phase reversal etc.  Please feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

 

yes Jalo thats exactly what i'm saying, use the outer shield as a shield, just as they have in the pictur of a different type of coax they make, but still just coax, in fact i believe all of their wires are coaxial in nature. 

 

aaaarrgghh, hehe you are still missing the point. piccolino IS coax, coax is simply a discriptor for a cable that has an axial strand in the center surrounded by an external shield (which can in some circumstances be used effectively as a conductor if connected at both ends).  sorry what company are you talking about? the only balanced cables ive seen of theirs uses a twisted pair of conductors, each one using only the center to conduct the phase and antiphase signals and the outer shield as a shield. 

 

as i said, it will electrically work using it as you describe, but it is not how balanced audio is designed to be used, or how the wire is designed to be used. it will make a connection, but it is not a balanced connection by nature, so (at least many of) the advantages of balanced audio are lost. its a pretty rugged standard so it will work under pretty extreme conditions, but if you are aiming for the top, which i assume you are if you are buying piccolino and balanced everything, you are not going the intended route.

 

you guys have kinda forced me out of my comfort zone here, i really do not want to comment on how other companies design their products, as far as im aware CC themselves seem to use it as intended, as i have shown in the picture. 

 


 

 


Edited by qusp - 9/15/11 at 2:18pm
post #28 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrots View Post


I have already cut them, if the 3A don't turn out as expected I can easily just used those pieces for a normal IEM cable.

What you are saying then Qusp is that using the cable configuration we are now we are nor getting a balanced signal so would that not mean that when using day a TWag balanced then that should sound better as that would be getting a balanced signal but that has not been the case here.
I have like I said previously already tried with 4 wires using both the sheilding and centre conductor for one signal and it sounded exactly the same as the cables I'm using now.
I like to listen with my ears not some random people posting on the net with no scientific facts.


yep, thats what i'm saying and lol at the rest of it, i prefer to do both if i can, using your ears to judge, doesnt mean you have to totally ignore the whole reason for the invention you are using. especially if you really want/must use it, just double up and its excellent again, just as they do. i never thought i would be amused at someone saying that line about using my ears, one i have used myself, but usually its used when someone doeant have an answer. ears are the final arbitor, but thats no reason to ignore best practices along the way


Edited by qusp - 9/15/11 at 2:26pm
post #29 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post

here i'll do it for you balanced lines

 

the first paragraph

 

 

In telecommunications and professional audio, a balanced line or balanced signal pair is a transmission line consisting of two conductors of the same type, each of which have equal impedances along their lengths and equal impedances to ground and to other circuits. [1] The chief advantage of the balanced line format is good rejection of external noise. Common forms of balanced line are twin-lead, used for radio frequency signals and twisted pair, used for lower frequencies. They are to be contrasted to unbalanced lines, such as coaxial cable, which is designed to have its return conductor connected to ground, or circuits whose return conductor actually is ground. Balanced and unbalanced circuits can be interconnected using a transformer called a balun.

Circuits driving balanced lines must themselves be balanced to maintain the benefits of balance. This may be achieved by differential signalingtransformer coupling or by merely balancing the impedance in each conductor.


Qusp, I understand the above post and I agree with what it states.  Let me rephrase it using the above wording to see if it makes sense.  The Crystal Piccolino cable is "a balanced line or balanced signal pair [that] is a transmission line consisting of two conductors of the same type, each of which have equal impedances along their lengths and equal impedances to ground and to other circuits."  The Piccolino has two equal conductors that is why they can carry the +/- signal in a balance configuration without channel imbalance.  The outside conductor in the Piccolino is not designed to be used as ground even though they could.  This is different from unbalance lines or coaxial cable because their second conductor is either connected to ground or is not equal in impedance to the other conductor hence the term unbalance lines.  My understanding is that the Piccolino has two equal conductors therefore meeting the requirement of a balance line.

post #30 of 45

btw not arguing with your personal experience, you hear what you hear, but i'm just saying there are often good reasons we do what we do to improve the audio that we listen to.

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