The PANASONIC RP-HTF600-S headphones. More fun than the HD650? - Page 172

I am a bit lost between HTF600 and the Samson SR850. Some users say they prefer the Samson other the Panny's and I don't know which I should go for.

I listen to rock and metal mostly and I do play a lot of games. Multi-player and single-player, but not competitive. Mostly Battlefield 3. Can someone help me choosing? The more I read, the more confused I get...

From what I read both are great but the Samson have brighter highs. If you are a fan for bright forward highs then go for them, if you like a more mellow but still detailed high go for the Panasonic, they are just really amazing.

I have a superlux re-brand related to the samson by blood and I don't think the panasonics hold a candle. They are too fragile and just don't sound as good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtturnip 

I have a superlux re-brand related to the samson by blood and I don't think the panasonics hold a candle. They are too fragile and just don't sound as good.

How about the highs? Are they fatiguing or harsh/sibilant in anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by scanferr 

I am a bit lost between HTF600 and the Samson SR850. Some users say they prefer the Samson other the Panny's and I don't know which I should go for.

 

I listen to rock and metal mostly and I do play a lot of games. Multi-player and single-player, but not competitive. Mostly Battlefield 3. Can someone help me choosing? The more I read, the more confused I get...

I own the HTF600 and bought one for a cousin, and I also bought an SR850 for my mom, so I've given those a listen as well.  As long as you're not overly sensitive to highs, I'd definitely go with the SR850 out of the two:  It's just plain more reliable.  The HTF600 is notorious for one or both drivers breaking for no reason.  Blowing hard into it, banging on it, and playing loud 50Hz sine waves sometimes fixes the issue, but it's a constant hassle, and sometimes nothing works at all.  It always seemed like at least one of my drivers was always on the fritz, and as soon as I fixed one, the other one would go out.  It's a real headache, and it gets in the way of just enjoying the dang things.  When the drivers are broken, they sound "hollow," and bass notes sound like buzzing/sputtering/fluttering driver or whooshing/helicopter noises.  Both my own and my cousin's HTF600's are pretty broken at this point.

Soundwise, they cater to different styles, but they both sound great for their pricepoint (compared to other headphones within their styles).  The HTF600 is more of a budget basshead model with deeper/more bass (except when it goes "hollow" and the bass disappears almost entirely), but the SR850 is no wimp either, and it has solid, respectable bass as well.  It's also more of an "all-rounder:"  Whereas the HTF600 has strongly emphasized bass, normal mids, and rolled off highs (all judged relative to each other), the SR850 is more balanced across the board, notwithstanding the slightly bright highs.  For what it's worth, I don't find them to be a problem, whereas sometimes the dimmed highs of the HTF600 make me feel like something's missing.  That's a matter of preference though.

If you want to read more about them, you might want to check out MalVeauX's reviews:

http://www.head-fi.org/products/sr850-professional-studio-reference-headphones/reviews/5573

http://www.head-fi.org/products/panasonic-rp-htf600-s-step-monitor/reviews/5665

He's listened to a lot of headphones, so he has a good sense for where to place their sound signatures relative to each other.  I think he's more sensitive to the SR850's highs than I am, and he's also more enthusiastic about the HTF600, but the reliability problems started happening for people a bit later on.

I appreciate the help you people are giving me.

I read all those reviews from MalVeauX and I even asked him by PM and he advised me/preferes the HTF600. But I really don't know. I am affraid that if I buy the HTF600 they break soon and that if I buy the SR850 I'm affraid the bass will be low and not enough or the highs to overwhelming...

I'm in a dilema here

Quote:

Originally Posted by scanferr 

I appreciate the help you people are giving me.

 

I read all those reviews from MalVeauX and I even asked him by PM and he advised me/preferes the HTF600. But I really don't know. I am affraid that if I buy the HTF600 they break soon and that if I buy the SR850 I'm affraid the bass will be low and not enough or the highs to overwhelming...

 

I'm in a dilema here

My HTF600's started breaking the week I got them.  Tap them wrong?  They break.  Play a wrong note?  They break.  Tilt them wrong?  They break.  Fix the right side?  The left side breaks.  Forget to do a ritual dance to ward off evil spirits?  They break even more.  It's just inherent to their design.  You can mess with them to fix things for a while, but unless you're one of the really lucky ones, it's probably going to be an ever-present issue that just gets worse over time.  They're fun to listen to while they work, but I've honestly listened to them broken more often than I've listened to them in full working condition.

Unless you're a hardcore basshead (bass at all costs), you don't have anything to worry about regarding the SR850's bass:  Not only is it good, but it's especially good for a semi-open headphone.  The bass between mid-bass (thumps) all the way down to a 40Hz rumble is emphasized over the mids.  It starts dropping off after 40Hz, but it's still present at 30Hz (the lowest frequency you'll usually be dealing with in music, movies, games, etc.).

You can check out a graph here, which compares the basshead Ultrasone HFI-580 with the Superlux HD 668B (same headphone as the SR850 except with a higher impedance):

http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=3301&graphID[1]=1973&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones

It would be nice if we could directly compare the HTF600's graph, but Headroom hasn't made one for it (I'm not sure if anyone has).  I suspect that the sub-bass below 40Hz would be significantly higher than the headphones I'm comparing here though.  Anyway, note the logarithmic scale of the x-axis (frequency) and the way they mark certain frequencies with vertical lines:  They mark 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 10000, and 20000Hz with verticals.

The sharp dropoff to the left looks bad for both headphones (neither of which is the HTF600 of course), but if you look at the lines, you'll see that the bass is still stronger than the mids as low as 40Hz.  I believe MalVeauX prefers to compare headphones based on their 30Hz emphasis though, which is where the SR850 weakens.  It's still not bad at 30hz, but below that it drops to basically nothing.  (Keep in mind that measured frequency response doesn't tell the whole story either:  Based on the graph alone, the SR850 appears to have more emphasized mid-bass than the more expensive HFI-580, but the HFI-580 is still regarded as a better basshead model anyway due to its higher class of quality, speed, etc.)

The drawback of the bright/sharp highs shows in the spike at 8.5kHz and overshoot in the 500Hz square wave (Tyll's graph at InnerFidelity shows spikes in different areas, since it's compensated differently...I wish I knew which graphs corresponded most to a "flat line is neutral" reference point).  It's not like "screeching harpies from Hades" though, and I personally prefer highs that are a bit bright over highs that are dim (like the HTF600's).  I'm no treblehead, but I prefer a range of sound signatures between neutral and "U-shaped" over unbalanced downward slopes (too thick) or upward slopes (too thin).

As a side note, if you're sensitive to the SR850's highs, they'll be your limiting factor for sound volume.  The HTF600 has a bit of a limiting factor too though, because it seems to have a spike in the upper mids/lower highs (around 2kHz or so IIRC) before it drops off.  I'm a bit more sensitive to that than actual highs, so that's reflected in my preference.

Long story short, I'd prefer the SR850 over the HTF600 for most purposes anyway, but the reliability issue really seals the deal for me, because I'd rather spend my time enjoying my headphones instead of trying to fix them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocko1 

How about the highs? Are they fatiguing or harsh/sibilant in anyway?

Not to me. They do have the superlux edge to the top end but I like it. I have the cad mh310 which is a superlux hd662. It is like a closed version of the samson and may have more bass, but I cannot attest to this since I have not heard the samson. Closed phones just generally have more bass. They are much more accurate than the htf600. There really is no comparison, but then again you can't buy them for 30 dollars, more like 50.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SobbingWallet 

 

My HTF600's started breaking the week I got them.  Tap them wrong?  They break.  Play a wrong note?  They break.  Tilt them wrong?  They break.  Fix the right side?  The left side breaks.  Forget to do a ritual dance to ward off evil spirits?  They break even more.  It's just inherent to their design.  You can mess with them to fix things for a while, but unless you're one of the really lucky ones, it's probably going to be an ever-present issue that just gets worse over time.  They're fun to listen to while they work, but I've honestly listened to them broken more often than I've listened to them in full working condition.

 

Unless you're a hardcore basshead (bass at all costs), you don't have anything to worry about regarding the SR850's bass:  Not only is it good, but it's especially good for a semi-open headphone.  The bass between mid-bass (thumps) all the way down to a 40Hz rumble is emphasized over the mids.  It starts dropping off after 40Hz, but it's still present at 30Hz (the lowest frequency you'll usually be dealing with in music, movies, games, etc.).

 

You can check out a graph here, which compares the basshead Ultrasone HFI-580 with the Superlux HD 668B (same headphone as the SR850 except with a higher impedance):

http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=3301&graphID[1]=1973&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones

 

It would be nice if we could directly compare the HTF600's graph, but Headroom hasn't made one for it (I'm not sure if anyone has).  I suspect that the sub-bass below 40Hz would be significantly higher than the headphones I'm comparing here though.  Anyway, note the logarithmic scale of the x-axis (frequency) and the way they mark certain frequencies with vertical lines:  They mark 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 10000, and 20000Hz with verticals.

 

The sharp dropoff to the left looks bad for both headphones (neither of which is the HTF600 of course), but if you look at the lines, you'll see that the bass is still stronger than the mids as low as 40Hz.  I believe MalVeauX prefers to compare headphones based on their 30Hz emphasis though, which is where the SR850 weakens.  It's still not bad at 30hz, but below that it drops to basically nothing.  (Keep in mind that measured frequency response doesn't tell the whole story either:  Based on the graph alone, the SR850 appears to have more emphasized mid-bass than the more expensive HFI-580, but the HFI-580 is still regarded as a better basshead model anyway due to its higher class of quality, speed, etc.)

 

The drawback of the bright/sharp highs shows in the spike at 8.5kHz and overshoot in the 500Hz square wave (Tyll's graph at InnerFidelity shows spikes in different areas, since it's compensated differently...I wish I knew which graphs corresponded most to a "flat line is neutral" reference point).  It's not like "screeching harpies from Hades" though, and I personally prefer highs that are a bit bright over highs that are dim (like the HTF600's).  I'm no treblehead, but I prefer a range of sound signatures between neutral and "U-shaped" over unbalanced downward slopes (too thick) or upward slopes (too thin).

 

As a side note, if you're sensitive to the SR850's highs, they'll be your limiting factor for sound volume.  The HTF600 has a bit of a limiting factor too though, because it seems to have a spike in the upper mids/lower highs (around 2kHz or so IIRC) before it drops off.  I'm a bit more sensitive to that than actual highs, so that's reflected in my preference.

 

Long story short, I'd prefer the SR850 over the HTF600 for most purposes anyway, but the reliability issue really seals the deal for me, because I'd rather spend my time enjoying my headphones instead of trying to fix them.

Thanks for the info, although I am still pondering whether the highs will be tolerable. Have you heard the JVC HARX700's? Is so how do they compare to the SR850's?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocko1 

Thanks for the info, although I am still pondering whether the highs will be tolerable. Have you heard the JVC HARX700's? Is so how do they compare to the SR850's?

Unfortunately no, I haven't heard the HA-RX700's, and I can't find any graphs for them either.  Judging by the responses in the following thread, the highs are indeed sharper than the HA-RX700:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/554971/jvc-ha-rx700-or-samson-sr850

Someone even used the phrase "much more shrill," although the HA-RX700 must be quite smooth (like the HTF600) for that to be an accurate assessment, because it's not like the SR850 is a Grado or something. ;)  Anyway, the general mood seems to be that the HA-RX700 is smoother and more casual, whereas the SR850 is a bit more hi-fi, brightness notwithstanding.  Opinions on the highs look to be mixed, but most people in the thread seem to prefer the SR850 anyway due to the tighter bass, greater detail, and better soundstage.

You can compare Amazon reviews between all three headphones here:

http://www.amazon.com/Samson-209995-SR850/product-reviews/B002LBSEQS/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-HARX700-Precision-Sound-Headphones/product-reviews/B0013OWPV4/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-RPHTF600S-RP-HTF600-S-Stereo-Headphones/product-reviews/B004MMEI8W/ref=sr_1_cc_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

The balance of reviews is quite interesting:  The vast majority of people gave the SR850 4 or 5 stars, but two people HATE the highs and gave it a 1.  The HTF600 has a lot of 5 star reviews and then a comparable number of 4, 3, 2, and 1 star reviews relative to each other, so there are a lot of people who love it and then no clear consensus after that.  The HA-RX700 reviews have a much more balanced "curve" to them, where every nuance is represented but the opinions strongly slant toward the positive side of things.  Keep in mind also that the HTF600 is the cheapest of the three, so reviewer expectations are calibrated relative to that as well.

Although I agree with drturnip's conclusions, be advised that the graphs he posted are marketing graphs intended to compare the Superlux HD662 and HD662F (different from the SR850) to the DT770 and SRH440, respectively.  They also use a compressed vertical scale relative to most graphs, making all of the headphones involved look more neutral than they actually are.

My advice?  If you know for sure that you're very sensitive to highs - actual highs, not just upper mids like 2kHz - then you'll want to avoid the SR850.  If you don't know for sure, but you're worried you might be, then it's probably worth the gamble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SobbingWallet 

Unfortunately no, I haven't heard the HA-RX700's, and I can't find any graphs for them either.  Judging by the responses in the following thread, the highs are indeed sharper than the HA-RX700:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/554971/jvc-ha-rx700-or-samson-sr850

Someone even used the phrase "much more shrill," although the HA-RX700 must be quite smooth (like the HTF600) for that to be an accurate assessment, because it's not like the SR850 is a Grado or something. ;)  Anyway, the general mood seems to be that the HA-RX700 is smoother and more casual, whereas the SR850 is a bit more hi-fi, brightness notwithstanding.  Opinions on the highs look to be mixed, but most people in the thread seem to prefer the SR850 anyway due to the tighter bass, greater detail, and better soundstage.

 

Although I agree with drturnip's conclusions, be advised that the graphs he posted are marketing graphs intended to compare the Superlux HD662 and HD662F (different from the SR850) to the DT770 and SRH440, respectively.  They also use a compressed vertical scale relative to most graphs, making all of the headphones involved look more neutral than they actually are.

Thanks for the info!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SobbingWallet 

 

My HTF600's started breaking the week I got them.  Tap them wrong?  They break.  Play a wrong note?  They break.  Tilt them wrong?  They break.  Fix the right side?  The left side breaks.  Forget to do a ritual dance to ward off evil spirits?  They break even more.  It's just inherent to their design.  You can mess with them to fix things for a while, but unless you're one of the really lucky ones, it's probably going to be an ever-present issue that just gets worse over time.  They're fun to listen to while they work, but I've honestly listened to them broken more often than I've listened to them in full working condition.

 

Unless you're a hardcore basshead (bass at all costs), you don't have anything to worry about regarding the SR850's bass:  Not only is it good, but it's especially good for a semi-open headphone.  The bass between mid-bass (thumps) all the way down to a 40Hz rumble is emphasized over the mids.  It starts dropping off after 40Hz, but it's still present at 30Hz (the lowest frequency you'll usually be dealing with in music, movies, games, etc.).

 

You can check out a graph here, which compares the basshead Ultrasone HFI-580 with the Superlux HD 668B (same headphone as the SR850 except with a higher impedance):

http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=3301&graphID[1]=1973&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones

 

It would be nice if we could directly compare the HTF600's graph, but Headroom hasn't made one for it (I'm not sure if anyone has).  I suspect that the sub-bass below 40Hz would be significantly higher than the headphones I'm comparing here though.  Anyway, note the logarithmic scale of the x-axis (frequency) and the way they mark certain frequencies with vertical lines:  They mark 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 10000, and 20000Hz with verticals.

 

The sharp dropoff to the left looks bad for both headphones (neither of which is the HTF600 of course), but if you look at the lines, you'll see that the bass is still stronger than the mids as low as 40Hz.  I believe MalVeauX prefers to compare headphones based on their 30Hz emphasis though, which is where the SR850 weakens.  It's still not bad at 30hz, but below that it drops to basically nothing.  (Keep in mind that measured frequency response doesn't tell the whole story either:  Based on the graph alone, the SR850 appears to have more emphasized mid-bass than the more expensive HFI-580, but the HFI-580 is still regarded as a better basshead model anyway due to its higher class of quality, speed, etc.)

 

The drawback of the bright/sharp highs shows in the spike at 8.5kHz and overshoot in the 500Hz square wave (Tyll's graph at InnerFidelity shows spikes in different areas, since it's compensated differently...I wish I knew which graphs corresponded most to a "flat line is neutral" reference point).  It's not like "screeching harpies from Hades" though, and I personally prefer highs that are a bit bright over highs that are dim (like the HTF600's).  I'm no treblehead, but I prefer a range of sound signatures between neutral and "U-shaped" over unbalanced downward slopes (too thick) or upward slopes (too thin).

 

As a side note, if you're sensitive to the SR850's highs, they'll be your limiting factor for sound volume.  The HTF600 has a bit of a limiting factor too though, because it seems to have a spike in the upper mids/lower highs (around 2kHz or so IIRC) before it drops off.  I'm a bit more sensitive to that than actual highs, so that's reflected in my preference.

 

Long story short, I'd prefer the SR850 over the HTF600 for most purposes anyway, but the reliability issue really seals the deal for me, because I'd rather spend my time enjoying my headphones instead of trying to fix them.

Man...thank you so much! I read everything carefully! And I'm glad I have enough knowledge to understand the graph and the scales. I think I will go for the Samson's then. I play to buy an amp or a dac in the future, so maybe the Superlux ones?

Btw, how many time of burn-in you think it's needed?

Thank you once again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by scanferr 

Man...thank you so much! I read everything carefully! And I'm glad I have enough knowledge to understand the graph and the scales. I think I will go for the Samson's then. I play to buy an amp or a dac in the future, so maybe the Superlux ones?

Btw, how many time of burn-in you think it's needed?

 

Thank you once again!

Unless you already have an amp or plan on buying one alongside your headphones, I'd definitely go for the Samson SR850 over the Superlux 668B.  It's just more convenient to be able to be able to plug your headphones straight into your source without worrying about getting congested sound...which is a much more noticeable issue than any kind of line noise that low impedance gear will let through.  Heck, I already have an amp, and I'd still go for the SR850 over the 668B just for convenience and flexibility.  If you can keep it simple, and there's no compelling reason not to, then do it. :p  (That said:  If you plan on getting a "boutique" subjectively designed amp with a high output impedance rather than one that measures well, then the 668B will pair better with it than the SR850, because the SR850 will have a worse impedance mismatch.)

There's also not much sense in buying a $100+ dedicated amp unless you're looking at a tier of headphones where your best options require one.  Since you're looking at sub-$100 headphones, and especially since the SR850 is a direct clone of the 668B with lower resistance, that doesn't really apply here.  (I can understand the anxiety of wanting an amp just to open up more possibilities for headphones though.)  Always remember that your choice in headphones will make a much bigger difference on your sound than your choice of amp (unless you pick headphones that need more juice than your source/amp can give), and your choice of amp will matter much more than your choice of DAC...so prioritize your purchases accordingly.  Unless your laptop's DAC is absolutely terrible, there's really no point in buying an external one until your headphones are pushing into a much higher tier of performance (e.g. Paradox/Mad Dog/HE-400/HE-500/LCD-2).  At that point, once you've already invested well over $500 into the hobby, a new DAC may be a logical upgrade option.  Neither of us are quite there yet. ;)

I can't really give an authoritative opinion on burn-in:  Scientific evidence shows that it's a real phenomenon for speakers, so the only question is how much the issue plays a role at a smaller scale (headphones), and I haven't seen any conclusive, properly-conducted studies on it.  (That said, Tyll performed a nicely done blind test once that went half of the way toward demonstrating a real phenomenon; the only problem was he would have had to go a step farther to demonstrate the differences were not due to manufacturing differences between different headphones of the same model.  I haven't been paying attention though, so he may have done more since.)  Everyone has their own opinion based on their own experiences (and the subjective biases that go along with them) about how much burn-in changes things and how long you need to burn for.

To give a practical recommendation though, I'd say to burn them in for just a few minutes at slightly higher than usual volume, then give them a listen at your ordinary volume.  If you like them, great!  If you don't, let them burn in overnight, cross your fingers, and try again to see if you've changed your mind. :p  There's currently no telling how much the difference is real vs. psychological, but all that matters is whether you end up liking them.

You have been really helpfull, Wallet :D Thank you very much for your time and I will definately go for the Samsom's then. I hope I like them and I will post feedback here when I get them.

Thank you once again! Some points for your reputation :))
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by scanferr 

You have been really helpfull, Wallet :D Thank you very much for your time and I will definately go for the Samsom's then. I hope I like them and I will post feedback here when I get them.

 

Thank you once again! Some points for your reputation :))
 

No problem, and good luck!  Most people coming into the hobby who try them seem to really enjoy them though, myself included...so fingers crossed.  If it turns out I steered you wrong though, you can yell at me. ;)