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Audio-gd Master-5/6/8/9 balanced head amp/ preamp - Page 22

post #316 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingwa View Post

Just a short pick up for the balance headphone amps.

 

Advantage:

1, Less distortion : The balance amp built with two  amps for the hot and cold signal in each channel, the cold and hot signal will meeting at the headphone, so can  counteract most distortion .

2, Higher S/N : The philosophy as the point 1, the balance amp not only counteract distortion but also counteract  the noise from transmit between source and amp and the amps inborn noise . So balance amp not only have advantage in long distance transmit but short distance transmit for less noise .

3, Higher Slew rate Etc : If a single ended amp have 100V/us slew rate, a balance amp based on this single end amp can arrive 200V/us . The faster Slew rate can keep the signal output more follow the input signal  , thus have more neutral and monitor sound, easy arrive "the wire with gain" .

4, Less request from power supply : Even the power supply undulate but the balance amps based on the difference can avoid the effect .

5, Higher power output : In theory is 4 times .

6, Less effect by the parts model :  Keep the balance amps have same parameter parts can easy arrive the design target .

 

Weakness:
1, Higher cost : Four amps for the stereo headphone amp, compare to two amps in the single ended amp , usually have near double cost . And request the parts parameter exact match in the hot and cold amp cause the building cost higher.

2, Larger size : Usually have near double size .

3, Higher output impedance : Usually have double output impedance . For a Monstor power amp, lower the output impedance to 50% is much difficult but for a headphone amp, lower the output impedance to 50% just easy, maybe without any cost increase .

 

Thanks Kingwa for the technical explanation.  Looks like I have to buy Norse Balance cable for my LCD-2  biggrin.gif

 

As for the weakness #2.  I heard that the 'exact match'nes will drift over time?  that will cause unevenness on the sound?

post #317 of 866

The advantage point 6 can explain this.

 

The balance amp have less effect by the parts parameter changed than the single ended amp.

 

In ACSS amp, the signal point is on the resistors not as the other amps the point on the transistors .

 

The resistors are much less sensitive  by time and temperature than the transistors.

post #318 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post

Agree, but which one?  biggrin.gif  V200?  I think Lyr sounds fun, but I'm afraid I accidentally burn my high sensitivity headphone and it's not so detail, but fun.  I'm a sucker for detail.

Anyone compared Master 8 vs Beta22 in SE mode?

 

To me, an amp that designed for Balance, going from its SE mode to Balance (which it is actually designed for) will definitely improve the sound.

But amp that's designed for SE (and added Balance for convenience), going from SE to Balance, degrade the sound.

That's the logic that I believe.

 

 

Have not compared it.  Audio-gd has made several versions of their Master series amps.  The same B22 design has been around for years.  I'm a bit pratial to DIY especially the ones from YBM and SWA.  Those guys know what they're doing and have been doing it for years.  

 

What I'm saying is if you get a balanced amp then it use with balanced Headphones.  If you are only going to use SE connections then get a SE designed amp.  This way you'll be getting the full potential of both.  It's way better than getting a balanced amp and using it in SE mode just to say "I have a balanced amp"  Just get a SE amp.

 

Take the GS-1 and the GS-X.  At the point in time when I got my GS-1, I said hell I should get the GS-X - Justin ask why, if your only going to use it in SE mode.  Might as well get the GS-1.  You get the same output power of out both SE outputs. GS-1 and GS-X  -  So save some money.  The GS-X is for if your going to use it with balanced Headphones.

 

Just my 2 cents..beerchug.gif

post #319 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post

The reason I don't do balance is because I'm not believer in Balance other than it gives louder sound, sorry guys.  For long distance, yes ...

 

My Leben is only single ended, but it sounds as nice (if not better) than majority of anything out there.

 

My only worry is, if Master 8 SE is only 'after thought' and not given enough attention to the sound quality.

Anyway, there's already a lot of threads dedicated to Balance vs SE performance and I don't want to derail this thread, I just want to know the reality for Master 8 itself, if SE is seriously designed or just for convenience.

"For long distance ..." and "SE only after thought":

These quotes makes me think you don't know the difference between balanced connection and balanced circuit design. In the latter case all circuits are doubled and the signal runs in-fase and reversed-fase in the two lines. Pro gear might only use balanced connection, which means single ended circuit design and then a conversion to balanced just before the XLR connections.

 

The Audio-gd balanced products are fully balanced design, and this even includes single ended connection, since the RCA signal is converted to balanced signal / path and then at another RCA output then converted back again. This would be the case if you use your Ref 7.1 with RCA to your (future) Master 8 amp. Hence there will be a couple of conversions in the path where you might loose a little bit of SQ compared to a balanced connection. But still, all circuits will be in use with RCA connection (plus the SE -> Bal. -> SE conversion).

post #320 of 866

...not to mention that you bypass DAC's output I/V stage and preamp's input V/I stage if you use ACSS (CAST) connections. Similar to having both DAC and pre on same circuit board (but each with it's own power supply). biggrin.gif

post #321 of 866
Thread Starter 

I could have reterminated your LCD cable in the time you spent responding to this thread  confused_face_2.gif

 

It's only simple Canare cable, nothing "fancy" you might ruin if that's what you're thinking.

 

If you're near Chicago sometime, I can help you out with it.

post #322 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by FauDrei View Post

...not to mention that you bypass DAC's output I/V stage and preamp's input V/I stage if you use ACSS (CAST) connections. Similar to having both DAC and pre on same circuit board (but each with it's own power supply). biggrin.gif
Wow did not know that, will need to get an ACSS amp. Thanks for the info FauDrei!
post #323 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post

^ little less detailed, compared to?

I actually too, kinda like Kingwa's sound preference that's why I keep following A-Gd products, but why oh why every top end he design are Balance  frown.gif.  Just kidding, I'm sure he has strong reason for that.

 

Sorry I meant the SE output is less deatiled and precise than the balanced.

post #324 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingwa View Post

The advantage point 6 can explain this.

 

The balance amp have less effect by the parts parameter changed than the single ended amp.

 

In ACSS amp, the signal point is on the resistors not as the other amps the point on the transistors .

 

The resistors are much less sensitive  by time and temperature than the transistors.

 

Although I don't really understand electronic, but  trust you as so many high end amps offers Balance design.  normal_smile%20.gif

But do you know why very seldom I see speaker, even high end, have Balance connection?

I don't try to challenge you, just want to learn from the expert.

 

Thanks Kingwa.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

Have not compared it.  Audio-gd has made several versions of their Master series amps.  The same B22 design has been around for years.  I'm a bit pratial to DIY especially the ones from YBM and SWA.  Those guys know what they're doing and have been doing it for years.  

 

What I'm saying is if you get a balanced amp then it use with balanced Headphones.  If you are only going to use SE connections then get a SE designed amp.  This way you'll be getting the full potential of both.  It's way better than getting a balanced amp and using it in SE mode just to say "I have a balanced amp"  Just get a SE amp.

 

Take the GS-1 and the GS-X.  At the point in time when I got my GS-1, I said hell I should get the GS-X - Justin ask why, if your only going to use it in SE mode.  Might as well get the GS-1.  You get the same output power of out both SE outputs. GS-1 and GS-X  -  So save some money.  The GS-X is for if your going to use it with balanced Headphones.

 

Just my 2 cents..beerchug.gif

 

Similar situation here  biggrin.gif

I haven't seen published Beta22 output power in SE mode so far, any idea?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

"For long distance ..." and "SE only after thought":

These quotes makes me think you don't know the difference between balanced connection and balanced circuit design. In the latter case all circuits are doubled and the signal runs in-fase and reversed-fase in the two lines. Pro gear might only use balanced connection, which means single ended circuit design and then a conversion to balanced just before the XLR connections.

 

The Audio-gd balanced products are fully balanced design, and this even includes single ended connection, since the RCA signal is converted to balanced signal / path and then at another RCA output then converted back again. This would be the case if you use your Ref 7.1 with RCA to your (future) Master 8 amp. Hence there will be a couple of conversions in the path where you might loose a little bit of SQ compared to a balanced connection. But still, all circuits will be in use with RCA connection (plus the SE -> Bal. -> SE conversion).

 

Very interesting, I never thought of that. 

How about V200, Lavry DA11, Grace M903, are they fully balance or just converting Balance input to SE circuitry?  I never see they mentioned about those models are fully balance.

Btw, out of curiosity, in their web, I don't see Martin Logan N 512 is fully balance as well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim3320070 View Post

I could have reterminated your LCD cable in the time you spent responding to this thread  confused_face_2.gif

 

It's only simple Canare cable, nothing "fancy" you might ruin if that's what you're thinking.

 

If you're near Chicago sometime, I can help you out with it.

 

Thanks Tim, sorry to frustrate you with my questions biggrin.gif

In balance, does cable quality matters then?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

Sorry I meant the SE output is less deatiled and precise than the balanced.

 

Thanks for confirming.

post #325 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post

 

Although I don't really understand electronic, but  trust you as so many high end amps offers Balance design.  normal_smile%20.gif

But do you know why very seldom I see speaker, even high end, have Balance connection?

I don't try to challenge you, just want to learn from the expert.

 


In balance, does cable quality matters then?

AVR;s  may not be balanced but many 2-channel and 'seperate' systems are.

 

Balanced connections are less sensitive to cable quality than the standard connections and ACSS is even less so.


Edited by tme110 - 7/11/12 at 9:34am
post #326 of 866

though while I personally believe that you can get SE systems that sound as good as SE, I also believe that components designed as balanced sound better when in balanced mode.
 

post #327 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by tme110 View Post

I also believe that components designed as balanced sound better when in balanced mode.
 

 

I agree 100%.  Also the V200 is not a balanced amp it just can take XLR inputs.  The V181 is their balanced amp - it's 2 V100s in the V181 box.  I think

post #328 of 866
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post

 

Thanks Tim, sorry to frustrate you with my questions biggrin.gif

In balance, does cable quality matters then?

 

 

 

Oooh, does cable quality matter? IMO, not at all but that's a kooky topic. Just reterminate the cable it came with- super easy if you have a solder gun, solder and a the plugs needed (can be bought from AGD when ordering the Master-8). I promise you can do it. PM me if you need further help on this.

post #329 of 866

Good advice - I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket cable unless you have money to burn.  I would highly recommend the Mater 8 though, especially using the ACCS connection.  Just made up a cable using the ACCS connection and to be honest I cant rule out burn in or level differences (should be easy enough to do as the Master 6 retains different volumes for the different inputs) but off the cuff I am hearing improvements in "lack of grain" without reducing detail, dynamic transition, as well as spatial definition.  Well worth using the ACCS connection method IMO.


Edited by drez - 7/17/12 at 2:37am
post #330 of 866

The ACSS connection has slightly lower output than XLR so even if the volume is set at say 30/70 on both ACSS and XLR XLR will be slightly louder.

On another point I made up a ACSS cable using Homegrown Audio solid silver cable and there is very little if any difference between it and my Artisan Ultimate Silver XLR cable. Both are pure silver,one solid one stranded, but I could not tell the difference in a blind test. Total cost of the Artisan was about £200 and the HomegrownAudio about £55. Both are excellent!

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