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Audio-gd Master-5/6/8/9 balanced head amp/ preamp - Page 18

post #256 of 866

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

I should probably quote message from Kingwa "The Master 6 if high current output stage, its configuration made it without switch distortion so it should be a class A amp."

 

So as far as switching distortion definition of class A is concerned it is fully class A.  This is the present definition of class A.

 

As far as the older definition of class A (this older definition refers to the amount of current available at the ouput stage), [the Master 6 is] class A output is 400MW at 100 ohm and Class AB is 3500MW at 100 ohm.  For any sensible listening level, even with the HE-6, the Master 6 will still be class A even by the old definition.

 

AFAK class- A aspects have not changed between Master 6 and Master 8.

 

EDIT: I have hopefully clarified this post.

It would have been nice to know what the output level is in the old definition in 50 Ohms. It should theoretically be double as much (800mW), but usually it's not. The Master-6 is in fact spec'ed to double the output from 100 to 50 Ohms: 3,5W to 7W (in class AB).

 

The Master-5 is spec'ed at 2400mW class A in 100 Ohms, so things are looking a little odd here ... The Master-6 ought to have more power than the 5 - even in class A - or what?

 

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm

(scroll down to the bottom of the page to see spec's.)

 

Anyway - if it sounds wonderful - who cares? Hmmm ... the fools like me do.

 

post #257 of 866

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

 

It would have been nice to know what the output level is in the old definition in 50 Ohms. It should theoretically be double as much (800mW), but usually it's not. The Master-6 is in fact spec'ed to double the output from 100 to 50 Ohms: 3,5W to 7W (in class AB).

 

The Master-5 is spec'ed at 2400mW class A in 100 Ohms, so things are looking a little odd here ... The Master-6 ought to have more power than the 5 - even in class A - or what?

 

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm

(scroll down to the bottom of the page to see spec's.)

 

Anyway - if it sounds wonderful - who cares? Hmmm ... the fools like me do.

 

 

I think the old definition of class A has to do with idle current, no real idea how that works out in terms of 100/50 ohms.  Either way I think 1600mW into 50 Ohms will be pretty loud with the HE-6.  I no longer have the EF-6 or any other high-output amplifier for comparison as to whether there is any clipping type distortion, but honestyl it's pretty impossible to tell. You would need another class A (by old definition to do with idle current) ampilifier with very low distortion to compare, and even then how do you tell if one or the other is transparent or coloured.  Given the absence of any real reference point it is impossible to say whether M6 is bright or just neutral and transparent.  

 

IMO though the fact that only some recordings are bright (regardless of level) tends to suggest that the M6 is in fact neutral and transparent.  It would be good to have a HD600 around to compare in terms of having a neutral benchmark that doesn't push the power output.  I think I will be sticking with the M6 for some time to come though, as honestly none of the amplifiers at this price point would stand a chance against the M6 IMO.  EF-6 is a little sweeter, but in my experience traded some detail and definition in return for this.

post #258 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post
I think the old definition of class A has to do with idle current, no real idea how that works out in terms of 100/50 ohms.  Either way I think 1600mW into 50 Ohms will be pretty loud with the HE-6.  I no longer have the EF-6 or any other high-output amplifier for comparison as to whether there is any clipping type distortion, but honestyl it's pretty impossible to tell. You would need another class A (by old definition to do with idle current) ampilifier with very low distortion to compare, and even then how do you tell if one or the other is transparent or coloured.  Given the absence of any real reference point it is impossible to say whether M6 is bright or just neutral and transparent.  

 

IMO though the fact that only some recordings are bright (regardless of level) tends to suggest that the M6 is in fact neutral and transparent.  It would be good to have a HD600 around to compare in terms of having a neutral benchmark that doesn't push the power output.  I think I will be sticking with the M6 for some time to come though, as honestly none of the amplifiers at this price point would stand a chance against the M6 IMO.  EF-6 is a little sweeter, but in my experience traded some detail and definition in return for this.

The power output in old def of class A should double when impedance is halved (for SS amps) - just as in class AB. (To me class A is only the "old"def.)

 

The 800mW (in 50 Ohm) I mentioned was doubled from the 100 Ohm spec (400mW) that you wrote earlier. Am I right that you doubled the figure that I wrote into 1600mW?

 

Interesting what you think of the Master-6 vs. the EF-6. Did you have them side-by-side to compare?

The sweeter (warmer?) sound of the EF-6 could very well be because it's running class A.


Edited by LarsHP - 4/23/12 at 12:28pm
post #259 of 866
Thread Starter 

I have definitely left some recordings behind since going to AGD gear- it does reveal the poor quality they were recorded in. I would not trade this clarity though for a smearing that would make it more listenable as the good recordings are spine tingling. 

post #260 of 866

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

The power output in old def of class A should double when impedance is halved (for SS amps) - just as in class AB. (To me class A is only the "old"def.)

 

The 800mW (in 50 Ohm) I mentioned was doubled from the 100 Ohm spec (400mW) that you wrote earlier. Am I right that you doubled the figure that I wrote into 1600mW?

 

Interesting what you think of the Master-6 vs. the EF-6. Did you have them side-by-side to compare?

The sweeter (warmer?) sound of the EF-6 could very well be because it's running class A.

 

I think the sweetness/warmth of the EF-6 is probably more likely due to sound signature tuning than the output current.  A good experiment is to turn the volume down and listen to recordings you find too bright.  I find almost no change in the brightness with lower volume, therefore I think the Master 6 is transparent and neutral rather than bright.  Don't get me wrong the EF-6 could equally bite with bright recordings as overall it also was quote transparent, and I never tried it out with good interconnects as I didn't want to invest in single ended cables until I was sure.  As it turned out the transformer in the EF-6 picked up too much line noise on my circuit, so I was sort of forced into changing to the Master 6.  Overally though, I agree with tim that with good recordings, the Maseter 6 is just unmatched.  

 

Other methods of tuning system sound signature can be dune with cabling, playback software, playback streaming method, transport selection etc.  IME Audio-GD USB transports are a tad on the dark and warm side, so the new DI could very well be an excellent choice.  Battery power is also often found to reduce harshness of a component esp transport.  In most cases though there is a tradeoff between transparency and warmth (maybe in exception of battery power.)  With my system I even find that file format and buffer size plays a role (flac often seems warmer than WAVE, large buffer size increase warmth but reduces fidelity)  If your HE-6 is out of warranty (as mine is) it might be worth trying hard-wiring (but I would want a longer cable first as DIY hard wiring plus short cable = problems...)

post #261 of 866

Just to clarify:

I am very, very satisfied with the Master-6, and I think it is neutral, open mids, extremely transparent, it has no harsh treble and a tight bass. I don't find it bright sounding, however the HE-6 is somewhat bright. This is also stated by Tyll at InnerFidelity.

 

However, my point is that if you take a certain amp circuit that's running class AB and then make it run class A, the sound gets warmer / sweeter. My power amp has a switch for choosing class AB or A, and when it runs class A, there is less veil and a warmer tone. (Purrin has stated the same thing about when modding an amp into class A.)

 

One more thing about this "old" and "new" definition of class A. I don't think there is any such thing, but there may very well be something to it, when we are talking Audio-gd amps, because they are built as current domain and has no fixed gain, but a variable gain: current and gain increases as volume increases.

 

BTW: There is not a single amp in audio running class B (that I know of). All analogue amps are running either AB or A.

 

 

post #262 of 866

Kingwa  1,  Fang  0

 

I wonder how Mr. Samuels would fare. He would definitely win the "blow out the HE-6 drivers" portion of the contest.

post #263 of 866

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

Just to clarify:

I am very, very satisfied with the Master-6, and I think it is neutral, open mids, extremely transparent, it has no harsh treble and a tight bass. I don't find it bright sounding, however the HE-6 is somewhat bright. This is also stated by Tyll at InnerFidelity.

 

However, my point is that if you take a certain amp circuit that's running class AB and then make it run class A, the sound gets warmer / sweeter. My power amp has a switch for choosing class AB or A, and when it runs class A, there is less veil and a warmer tone. (Purrin has stated the same thing about when modding an amp into class A.)

 

One more thing about this "old" and "new" definition of class A. I don't think there is any such thing, but there may very well be something to it, when we are talking Audio-gd amps, because they are built as current domain and has no fixed gain, but a variable gain: current and gain increases as volume increases.

 

BTW: There is not a single amp in audio running class B (that I know of). All analogue amps are running either AB or A.

 

I think this is pretty spot on - neutral + bright = bright, so to make HE-6 neutral needs a slightly coloured amplifier or other mods/equipment imo.  One thing for sure is the EF-6 runs in class-A the amount of heat it puts out is insane.  


Edited by drez - 4/24/12 at 6:25am
post #264 of 866

i totally agree with drez. I also think that HE-6 needs an amp that has a warm/sweet sound signature. I had a chance to listen to the master-6, and i think that personally i prefer EF6 with my HE-6. 

 

Don't get me wrong. Master-6 is a GREAT amp. I almost ordered one (MASTER-5) until i heard EF6.

 

Compare against EF6 i fee that Master-6 is just a little bit too unforgiving. The source and the recording must have extremely good quality. On the other hand EF6 sounds good even with an iPod as the source. 

 

At the end of the day i decided that EF6 is a little bit more fun and musical to listen to. 

 

If you want neutral and referencing sound, MASTER-6 is a good choice. If you want a warm, sweet and musical sound, EF6 is probably better.

 

just my two cents... :-)

post #265 of 866
I think it has much to do with pairing/synergy also. In my case I solved the HE-6 brightness (it is in fact a little bright sounding) with a simple, but effective mod, and then the setup sounds just perfect. In my mind it is better to adjust where the unbalance is instead of counterbalancing, but in the end it's how the complete chain sounds.
post #266 of 866

Personally i don't think that HE-6's sound signature is bright. It will def sound bright if not giving enough power, and HE-6 needs a lot of power. 

 

We all hear things differently. At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference. :-)

 

Have a sound signature is actually good. Having a little bit color in the sound is actually good (as long as it was done tastefully and mildly). Most of the hi-end products have its own sound signature. Dead neutral stuff doesn't usually sell well except for professional use. 

post #267 of 866

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankdisc View Post

i totally agree with drez. I also think that HE-6 needs an amp that has a warm/sweet sound signature. I had a chance to listen to the master-6, and i think that personally i prefer EF6 with my HE-6. 

 

Don't get me wrong. Master-6 is a GREAT amp. I almost ordered one (MASTER-5) until i heard EF6.

 

Compare against EF6 i fee that  On the other hand EF6 sounds good even with an iPod as the source. 

 

At the end of the day i decided that EF6 is a little bit more fun and musical to listen to. 

 

If you want neutral and referencing sound, MASTER-6 is a good choice. If you want a warm, sweet and musical sound, EF6 is probably better.

 

just my two cents... :-)

 

i totally agree Master-6 is just a little bit too unforgiving. The source and the recording must have extremely good quality.

 

the bad recording really need to think about how to find a coloured tube amp to listen to. master 6 do unforgive all of them. no bargain.

 

 

 

 

post #268 of 866
I don't find the Master-6 unforgiving, just extremely transparent and highly resolving.

I have had the HE-6 for more than a year, and thought it was perfectly balanced until a month or two ago: I attended some classical concerts (w/o amplification), and that made my suspicion clearer. Often when listening to recordings I have felt it was somewhat bright, but I thought that well this is probably how the recording is. Now I am convinced that the HE-6 is in fact bright - or to put it more precisely: it has too much upper mids and treble. Take a look at the frequency graphs at HeadRoom and InnerFidelity and read what they say about how the optimal graph should look. They are indirectly and directly saying that the HE-6 has too much in the upper frequencies.

My amps - both the Master-6 and my 50 Watt class A power amp - are more than powerful enough to drive the HE-6 to it's full potential. And frankly, I am beginning to think that this power issue w/ HE-6 is also because it is bright, and when you have much more than enough power on tap, the brightness lessens. However, it doesn't disappear completely - in my opinion of course.
post #269 of 866

I always thought the HE6 was a little tipped up in the treble, but overall pretty neutral. I'd like to hear the SR-009 one day to really hear what neutral sounds like.

post #270 of 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmswjm View Post

I always thought the HE6 was a little tipped up in the treble, but overall pretty neutral. I'd like to hear the SR-009 one day to really hear what neutral sounds like.
Jude said in his Head-fi TV review of the SR-009, that it was a little bright (!) If you want your HE-6 darker, then put a piece of felt between the earpad and the magnet grill and make a hole of about 3,5 - 4,5 cm roughly in the centre, and then it sounds just as you want (bigger hole=brighter, smaller hole=darker).
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