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The KRK KNS-8400: you can have it all. - Page 28

post #406 of 451

These definitely don't sound the same with the jack not properly locked. Sometimes I've put them on and had to make sure the lock is tight. Given that, I'm not sure that I would file off the lock on them.

post #407 of 451

I'm interested in these headphones,

but can anyone tell me why these measurements look so funky?

post #408 of 451

Huh,

 

My ears certainly told me the bass response was better than that square wave response leads to be. 

 

I'm usually pretty good about hearing "wonky" bass.  Then again, IF's frequency response measurement is different than headrooms - and my ears definitely didn't agree with headroom's measurement.

 

Objectifying sound is just really difficult. 

post #409 of 451

OK.. I asked on the 660 thread but that's not getting a response.  (Maybe I'm too impatient).  For whatever reason though these KRK seem to be getting more attention (maybe just louder attention?).  

 

Anyway, I'm curious if any of the 8400 users have heard a pair of DT-660 in close enough proximity to make a comparison. I've heard the KRKs and it's hard not to like them, but there is some room for improvement.  An obvious objective one is sensitivity and the 660's clearly have it beat there at least.  (edit: I don't think that's clear either actually, I might have misread something). I won't bias the question with more thoughts than that though, oh except one which is also almost safe to call objective at this point I think... the KRK's are darn comfortable.

 

The situation with the 660's seems odd.  Almost all comments on them here have been positive, including DavidMahler's A+ in the battle of the masters, but they don't seem to get much attention.  The descriptions of them make them seem like they would be in strong competition with the KRK's.  They do cost at least half a bill more though.


Edited by BiggerHead - 3/20/13 at 7:43pm
post #410 of 451

So I got to try the KRK's again.  This time I tried the 6400s a little too, but not much.  The 8400's  are definitely impressively (after listening to higher end things too) clear, detailed, and image relatively impressively.  I could definitely hear whisper quite details, like a conductor's stick being moved somewhere, that I didn't notice on other phones.  They were not the most engaging, and I think this comes down to the air produced by the relatively nice imaging preventing the full spectrum of sound from all being in the center of your head.  Less engagement is not always bad though.  

 

The highs are beautiful.  I like treble, hearing flutes and trumpets soar and these deliver.  Likewise I can't stand the MDR-1R because, while not being boomy, still, the highs are washed away.  

 

As for bass on KRK's, for orchestral music it's almost perfectly loud enough.  It's actually timpanis that left me a little let down but more for DONG  than for volume.  Still the bass was a couple of db weak overall and I didn't find the bass that clear.  On the whole, on orchestral music though (or pianos), these things are big huge win, really amazing sound even if slightly un-engaging.

 

In the end though, I also like some "rock 'n roll" (or even some 1812), and this needs the bass to deliver when asked.  I didn't like the M50's for pounding me in the head too much and even the DT770's 32 ohm were maybe a tad too colored, but still, when bass is asked for bass should be delivered (just not more).  Unfortunately these KRK's cannot deliver it.  Aside from testing with bassier music, I also tested with EQ.  I tried to get the KRK's to have as much punch as DT770's (just the 32 ohm version) just to see if they could.  It wasn't possible.  Crank up the EQ on sub-bass and or bass in any combination and sure, bass got louder, but no impact, and worse (but probably related) it sounded really stuffy, like it was coming out of a little cardboard box and just plain got ugly.  The inner fidelity graphs seem to show this clearly (high bass THD at high volume).   This was very obvious, not some nuance, but was even noticable on bass heavy parts without EQ.    The 6400's were worse but different.  No stuffy bass sound, but almost no sub bass at all.  I EQ'd 32 hz up and barely after I started getting some sub bass, I quickly got rattling.  This sounded like an analog effect, over-driving the speakers, but maybe I got digital clipping. Anyway the 6400s refused to even make an effort on sub bass. In contrast, I could EQ up the 770's and they just got even more impact, but still sounded clean.  

 

It's hard to hate these headphones.  Did I mention they are comfortable?

I like the sure 840 tone balance really well (just a touch too much treble roll off).  If they were lighter weight, had deeper earcups, and were as impressively detailed as the KRK's, they would be a no brainer.   So now I know what my ideal headphone would be like.


Edited by BiggerHead - 3/22/13 at 8:49am
post #411 of 451

^ really strange that you don't get much sub-bass with yours. I'll admit there's not much bass impact (like the AKG K702/Q701) and my KRKs are really good at fooling me that they're bass light. This latest pair seems a little more bassy than my last two. Probably imagining things. The 8400 seems to now have more mid/upper bass than the 6400 and also sounds a bit fuller most of the time. This of course varies with the recording. It won't make tinny and harsh recordings sound any better normal_smile%20.gif

 

The KRK KNS-6400 kind of reminds me of more like the AKG K601 and the KRK KNS-8400 more like a mix of the K702 and Q701.

 

I remember trying both the 6400 and 8400 with gaming and the 8400 seemed to have just a little more present low bass extension. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but it has stuff that's so low that my 65th Anniversary and HD-650 can barely pick up at all. Very low rumbling sounds. The kind of stuff that would give your ears a nice massage on the DT-770 Pro 80. For me the KRK KNS-8400 has as good low bass as my Koss Pro DJ100. The DJ100 I think has more forward low bass than it's graphs seem to show. It looks like the HD-650's graphs have the same level of low bass, but on the DJ100 it's much more noticeable.

 

You should try the 8400 with movies that have a low of low bass. Maybe Jurassic Park, U571 or whatever else. I don't really watch movies for the low bass normal_smile%20.gif

 

If you like the KRK KNS-8400, but want more bass presence (without it being bloated) try the TBSE (Tony Bennett Special Edition) which is a version of the Koss Pro DJ100. You can get it at Tuesday Morning for $50 and includes a removable cable and case. It sounds pretty similar to the HD-650 and K702 Anniversary Edition. The HD-650 sounds more muffled in comparison though. The DJ100 has a tad more bass than my K702 Anniversary (Q701 with 65th pads..same thing), but with more low bass.

 

I haven't used my KRKs in about forever. I need to get them out again. Last time I tried them they were much more trebly than I remember. It was kind of a shock after listening to the HD-650 and Q701.

post #412 of 451

Oh now this graph is pretty ugly:

 

http://en.goldenears.net/9213

 

Doesn't sound as bad as it looks.

 

I always did feel they had some minor dip in the lower mids somewhere, but slightly forward upper mids. Always felt the 6400 had more neutral lower mids, but not much warmth. Sometimes I don't even know if a dead neutral headphone is supposed to be warm normal_smile%20.gif

 

HD-600 is quite warm, but yet I don't think that's neutral at all...

 

Also..low bass could suffer a LOT on the KRKs with a light or poor seal. The Inner Fidelity graphs seem to show that..

 

I should the 6400 pads on the 8400.

post #413 of 451

Definitely the 8400 extended all the way down to very low frequencies, and definitely the 6400 did not, probably they didn't go below 50hz very well.   I did play with seal.  The sides of my head are big and flat and I felt like they sealed really well and consistently.  The clamping force wasn't huge though on my head, but I think that's normal with my head shape.  

 

I'm not looking for something with much, if any, more bass tilt. A tiny bit is ok, but the real point is something where the bass is able to come out to play, but remains very civilized most of the time.  Usually on speakers, if anything I turn down the bass knob for casual listening to make music less tiring to me, but when I hit the loudness button I expect to feel the fear inspiring power.  I get a smile on my face and usually turn it back off in three minutes.  These just didn't have that option.   

 

I'm not sure about that frequency response graph.  I subjectively agree with slow decay below 500hz in the waterfall plot, and it does start all the way up at 500hz as it was affecting the impact of the upper harmonics of the kettle's just a little.  It sounds like yours were not as bad as what I heard and I've followed your posts enough to give that real credibility.  These were store demos.  Maybe they've been abused.  From my experience with $20 phones I'd expect some obvious rattle if that's the case but that might be wrong.   

 

Anyway, if I don't buy these I will certainly regret it, but you can't have everything. Maybe I have better hearing than my wallet would like (actually I don't know of an expensive solution either).    I haven't heard akg's or the TBSE/DJ100/200.  I don't think I can find the Koss anywhere in this country so I'd have to buy them blind, and I am tempted.  I did try CAL's, very pleasant frequency balance to my ears for the minute I tried them, but it's a toy in comparison to the next price tier, no offense to CAL fans.  I'm very curious about the DT660's.

post #414 of 451

and don't me wrong, the KRK's quickly became the benchmark for me to compare everything else to.

post #415 of 451

So, after many hours of research for a pair of headphones specifically for recording and producing music with, alongside my Yamaha HS80M studio monitors. As you can see from my signature, I have a collection of nice headphones, all of which have their personal place and role in my collection.  Besides the KRK KNS 8400, I was considering the Beyer DT250, DT880/600, Senn HD600, German Maestro GMP 8.35M and SOUNDmagic HP100s.  I was very close on all these choices, but eventually decided on the KRKs through a combination of reviews throughout the interweb (especially looking at the less consumer/more pro sound places), KRKs unique studio monitoring pedigree and a great deal bundling these with the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitoring) box.

 

It's still early days yet as I received them on Thursday.  One thing I am convinced of now is burn-in, as these were definitely quite disappointing straight from the box, with shrill and coloured treble and closed in soundstage.  I have given them about 20 hours burn-in up to now and they have DEFINITELY changed, it's not just my ears.  They don't even sound shrill now.  In fact, just listening to Pink Floyd on them, they sound positively warm and spacious, which goes against the grain of many of the common complaints I've read on here.  I also would know shrill if I heard it, coming from the warm and smooth HD598s and the dark, yet detailed HE-400s.

 

I've not yet got down to making music with them yet, that will be this weekend, but I can safely say these are keepers.  They are my new portable can as well, with their great isolation and comfort.  Surprisingly to me, they have sounded at their best (for music listening) up to now from my mobile phone through the Fiio E11, even better than through my main PC rig (Asus Essence STX)!  I don't know how, but we'll see how that transpires in the long run.  I'm certainly looking forward to receving my Galaxy S4 next week, with it's Wolfson DAC!

 

These headphones do not do anything to enhance or wow with their presentation of the music.  If the music is produced and mastered well, they will sound GREAT.  If not, they won't and this makes me happy that I have a great pair of cans for critical listening when making my own music.  They really do sound different on every song, like a different can if you like, except there is a definite character to the treble presentation that is evident on everything.  It's not bad, it's just like a slight colouring.  It sounds like a symptom of being a closed can and I soon get used to it and forget about it.  You will notice if you flick randomly from track to track looking for it though.

 

Don't listen to anyone who says these have no bass, that is wrong.  On some tracks, the bass has been more present and clean than on my HE-400s.  It is totally dependent on how the music has been mixed, produced and mastered.  Listening to some old recordings of the Philadelphia Orchestra that I know really well, I was disappointed in that they sounded thin and shrill, almost grainy.  The point is though, those recordings do sound like that, but my other headphones do a really good job at warming them up and making them sound better than they are (looking at you, HD598s!).

 

Anyone wanting great value cans for critical listening, portable use and music production need look no further.  I am totally happy and getting happier every day with them!  I'm yet to try gaming or movies on them...

 

Peace!

post #416 of 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by amigomatt View Post

So, after many hours of research for a pair of headphones specifically for recording and producing music with, alongside my Yamaha HS80M studio monitors. As you can see from my signature, I have a collection of nice headphones, all of which have their personal place and role in my collection.  Besides the KRK KNS 8400, I was considering the Beyer DT250, DT880/600, Senn HD600, German Maestro GMP 8.35M and SOUNDmagic HP100s.  I was very close on all these choices, but eventually decided on the KRKs through a combination of reviews throughout the interweb (especially looking at the less consumer/more pro sound places), KRKs unique studio monitoring pedigree and a great deal bundling these with the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitoring) box.

 

It's still early days yet as I received them on Thursday.  One thing I am convinced of now is burn-in, as these were definitely quite disappointing straight from the box, with shrill and coloured treble and closed in soundstage.  I have given them about 20 hours burn-in up to now and they have DEFINITELY changed, it's not just my ears.  They don't even sound shrill now.  In fact, just listening to Pink Floyd on them, they sound positively warm and spacious, which goes against the grain of many of the common complaints I've read on here.  I also would know shrill if I heard it, coming from the warm and smooth HD598s and the dark, yet detailed HE-400s.

 

I've not yet got down to making music with them yet, that will be this weekend, but I can safely say these are keepers.  They are my new portable can as well, with their great isolation and comfort.  Surprisingly to me, they have sounded at their best (for music listening) up to now from my mobile phone through the Fiio E11, even better than through my main PC rig (Asus Essence STX)!  I don't know how, but we'll see how that transpires in the long run.  I'm certainly looking forward to receving my Galaxy S4 next week, with it's Wolfson DAC!

 

These headphones do not do anything to enhance or wow with their presentation of the music.  If the music is produced and mastered well, they will sound GREAT.  If not, they won't and this makes me happy that I have a great pair of cans for critical listening when making my own music.  They really do sound different on every song, like a different can if you like, except there is a definite character to the treble presentation that is evident on everything.  It's not bad, it's just like a slight colouring.  It sounds like a symptom of being a closed can and I soon get used to it and forget about it.  You will notice if you flick randomly from track to track looking for it though.

 

Don't listen to anyone who says these have no bass, that is wrong.  On some tracks, the bass has been more present and clean than on my HE-400s.  It is totally dependent on how the music has been mixed, produced and mastered.  Listening to some old recordings of the Philadelphia Orchestra that I know really well, I was disappointed in that they sounded thin and shrill, almost grainy.  The point is though, those recordings do sound like that, but my other headphones do a really good job at warming them up and making them sound better than they are (looking at you, HD598s!).

 

Anyone wanting great value cans for critical listening, portable use and music production need look no further.  I am totally happy and getting happier every day with them!  I'm yet to try gaming or movies on them...

 

Peace!

 

Glad to know you're liking them. I have had mines now for over a year and I must say I like them more than ever even while having LCD-2 and HE-500. I found these particularly excellent for monitoring and late night work. Although for final mixing, these aren't the best suited though. For vocal tracking with studio use, these are quite good with a detailed mid range. Treble is slightly peaked, which helps with the tracking. Also these get way comfier after a week. The headband breaks in and the memory foam pads kick in, the drivers get burnt it. Quite a good selection at that price. It took me about two-three months to truly get used to them for monitoring before being as fluent as I wanted it to be.

post #417 of 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom25 View Post

 

Glad to know you're liking them. I have had mines now for over a year and I must say I like them more than ever even while having LCD-2 and HE-500. I found these particularly excellent for monitoring and late night work. Although for final mixing, these aren't the best suited though. For vocal tracking with studio use, these are quite good with a detailed mid range. Treble is slightly peaked, which helps with the tracking. Also these get way comfier after a week. The headband breaks in and the memory foam pads kick in, the drivers get burnt it. Quite a good selection at that price. It took me about two-three months to truly get used to them for monitoring before being as fluent as I wanted it to be.

Nice to know, thanks for your impressions too.  I haven't yet started making any music with them, but looking back at my other choices, could I have chosen better for cans to mix with at this price?  I have my monitors too, of course.  I know it's not ideal to mix on headphones, but what would your choice be if you were to do so?

post #418 of 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by amigomatt View Post

Nice to know, thanks for your impressions too.  I haven't yet started making any music with them, but looking back at my other choices, could I have chosen better for cans to mix with at this price?  I have my monitors too, of course.  I know it's not ideal to mix on headphones, but what would your choice be if you were to do so?

 

At this price point, I haven't tried much else besides Shure SRH 240. It had decent mids and smooth highs, nothing sparkly. Moderately paced sounding, not fast or slow. It had a slight mid bass kick, with no sub bass. After the KNS 8400, I ended up getting the D2000 which is far better for mixing and putting final touches as the ambience comes out quite well on them. Not to mention they have great bass response. Then I got the HE-500 and LCD-2. LCD-2 is pretty neutral and great sounding, although not a fair competitor at $1000.

 

From your list, the HD600 and DT880 are good choices as well. Both neutral although I would give the neutrality factor to DT880 by a little bit - although some people call it clinical, so it differs in opinion. Although DT880 has more speed than HD600, which is important for tracking envelope changes and such. Also, in this regard I like the KNS 8400 a lot. It has a clean mid range but overall has decent speed. It's not as fast as my planars, but still good transient response. Overall, the 8400 would still fit under the neutral category. Of course, you'd still need time and practice to get used to them.

 

With 8400, regardless of whatever amp I have used them with, they don't seem to have much dynamic range. It's almost as if they have a built in compressor in them. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your purpose with them. For just monitoring and tracking, the 8400 excel at this, which I primarily use them for. Great for late night sessions when your are just experimenting around and the slight forward signature always helps ease that so you're not getting fatigued. On the other hand, automation and eq'ing is a bit of pain with these. For final mixing, either use different headphones or just go to monitor speakers. Also while the KNS 8400 has a slightly enhanced treble which helps with the imaging, it still doesn't have high end extension to retrieve room ambience. So the 8400 for me were and still are excellent for tracking and monitoring but not ideal choice for mixing and finishing up a track. Also for electronic music, it's great for tracking synths and basslines, although with everything in the mix, it becomes hard at times to judge levels and stuff gets masked. The impact doesn't really come through on these. They have good extension but not the proper impact to give out a feel for how it would translate on bigger systems.

 

I remember coming across good reviews for M-50, personally, not into it. It's not exceptional at anything, sort of like a low/mid tier overall headphone.

 

I still keep my cheap M-Audio AV30 monitors for example that cost $99. Have them placed on decent acoustic stands and have good room treatment and separation. To be honest, the soundstage here in the final mix is easier to decipher here than over HE-500 and even LCD-2. I am personally a speaker guy. The stereoimage is something that is always easier to figure out on speakers. Headphones are always good to use to get quite close, but I almost always end up adjusting after on speakers.

 

Regardless, I wouldn't recommend selling the KNS 8400 in the future. I like to check my work on different and many things just to be sure that there aren't any exaggerated peaks or hollow dips. From car stereo to Ipod dock to headphones (D2000, 8400, LCD-2, HE-500) to monitors (VXT6, HR824, Focal Twins) to even things like Apple IBuds LOL (which is actually a good idea since considering that the majority of general population still uses the Apple Ibuds or similar audio quality products)

post #419 of 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom25 View Post

 

At this price point, I haven't tried much else besides Shure SRH 240. It had decent mids and smooth highs, nothing sparkly. Moderately paced sounding, not fast or slow. It had a slight mid bass kick, with no sub bass. After the KNS 8400, I ended up getting the D2000 which is far better for mixing and putting final touches as the ambience comes out quite well on them. Not to mention they have great bass response. Then I got the HE-500 and LCD-2. LCD-2 is pretty neutral and great sounding, although not a fair competitor at $1000.

 

From your list, the HD600 and DT880 are good choices as well. Both neutral although I would give the neutrality factor to DT880 by a little bit - although some people call it clinical, so it differs in opinion. Although DT880 has more speed than HD600, which is important for tracking envelope changes and such. Also, in this regard I like the KNS 8400 a lot. It has a clean mid range but overall has decent speed. It's not as fast as my planars, but still good transient response. Overall, the 8400 would still fit under the neutral category. Of course, you'd still need time and practice to get used to them.

 

With 8400, regardless of whatever amp I have used them with, they don't seem to have much dynamic range. It's almost as if they have a built in compressor in them. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your purpose with them. For just monitoring and tracking, the 8400 excel at this, which I primarily use them for. Great for late night sessions when your are just experimenting around and the slight forward signature always helps ease that so you're not getting fatigued. On the other hand, automation and eq'ing is a bit of pain with these. For final mixing, either use different headphones or just go to monitor speakers. Also while the KNS 8400 has a slightly enhanced treble which helps with the imaging, it still doesn't have high end extension to retrieve room ambience. So the 8400 for me were and still are excellent for tracking and monitoring but not ideal choice for mixing and finishing up a track. Also for electronic music, it's great for tracking synths and basslines, although with everything in the mix, it becomes hard at times to judge levels and stuff gets masked. The impact doesn't really come through on these. They have good extension but not the proper impact to give out a feel for how it would translate on bigger systems.

 

I remember coming across good reviews for M-50, personally, not into it. It's not exceptional at anything, sort of like a low/mid tier overall headphone.

 

I still keep my cheap M-Audio AV30 monitors for example that cost $99. Have them placed on decent acoustic stands and have good room treatment and separation. To be honest, the soundstage here in the final mix is easier to decipher here than over HE-500 and even LCD-2. I am personally a speaker guy. The stereoimage is something that is always easier to figure out on speakers. Headphones are always good to use to get quite close, but I almost always end up adjusting after on speakers.

 

Regardless, I wouldn't recommend selling the KNS 8400 in the future. I like to check my work on different and many things just to be sure that there aren't any exaggerated peaks or hollow dips. From car stereo to Ipod dock to headphones (D2000, 8400, LCD-2, HE-500) to monitors (VXT6, HR824, Focal Twins) to even things like Apple IBuds LOL (which is actually a good idea since considering that the majority of general population still uses the Apple Ibuds or similar audio quality products)

Thanks Zoom, for that very informative reply.  I'm ultimately a speakers guy as well and would never trust final mixing on headphones.  In fact, as you say, I would never trust a final mixdown on any one product. I totally agree with the stereo imaging argument and I don't believe that crossfeed can make up for that shortfall.  The music needs to be heard from out front and in a room.  Lately, I've been getting more and more into using headphones, especially for late night/ealr morning listening (when I listen most).

 

Interestingly, bundled with my 8400s was the Focusrite VRM box, a virtual montoring tool that simulates a number of speakers in either bedroom, living or professional studio space.  There are choices ranging from NS10s, Rogers, KRKs down to portable PC speakers, 80s Hi-fi and 90s Hi-fi floorstanders.  Unfortunately, car stereo was not included.  It is very gimmicky, but also very useful, as even though each space adds a noticeable (and i believe unrealistically large) amount of reverb, each set up is very different and although may not be an accurate respresentation of what it's supposed to be, it offers you many options to check your mixes on, which when one gets used to the overall style of, will definitely be useful.  I'm looking forward to trying it out this weekend.

 

Before I bought my HE-400s recently, I was going to get a pair of DT880/600s.  After much research, I think I still may have to invest in a pair somewhere down the line.  I'm also keen on hearing the HD600s, especially for my orchestral interests as I've heard that many orchestral engineers swear by these cans.  I'm less in a rush to obtain a pair though as I already own the HD598s and they may be too close to warrant the purchase.  In the meantime, I'm very happy with these KRKs, as they are my only decent closed can and have also become my new portable set.  They sound great through my brand spanking new Galaxy S4 via my Fiio E11 - couldn't be happier!

 

All the best! 

post #420 of 451

Interesting frequency response comparison.

 

 

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