the role of perceptive hearing - Page 3

Hi George

 

Everywhere else on Head-Fi, you can make it up as you go along.   Anecdotes and mythology abound.  In Sound Science, however, if someone makes a bizarre claim, like "they can hear something that can't be measured", we have the right to ask for proof.  Repeatable and verifiable.

 

I'm not debating with mike.  Until he offers proof, as far as I'm concerned, he's just making it up as he goes along.

 

And for the record, perception is fickle.  You may not be hearing what you think you're hearing.

 

USG

 

Actually yah, I do.. While I am an objectivist, In the end my EARS do also matter.

 

A great example! And the only one example is needed imo:

 

If you use a 28 awg copper cable to your speaker/headphone you'll get a certain frequency response on a graph measurement chart...

 

HOWEVER! The interesting part:! If you use 18 awg wire to feed the same speaker system and/or headphone, measurement on your frg will be the same, but the sound will "sound" immensley better.

 

There; and that is how you prove human perception is almost supreme. Amen. I think everyone has experienced this somewhere along the line, So many can relate..

 

       Updtate, if you havn't performed a simple test like this or striven for stuffs like this with your sound... I'm not so sure you can really call your self "esoteric, audiophile, a maverik, eccentric, even an engineer... Just a consumer.. Because if eventually, you don't research, really dedicating youself, going to the enth degree to strive for the best sound, what are you, or I, really?? We're experimenting in a way "educating" ourselves; in a way. And we learn what works or doesn't work. You can usually tell instantly if your mod to a headphone, or building an amp, switching out your BJT's, MOSFETS,  or any number of things changes the sound. If you're not willing to accept that, we almost may as well be beats users imo...

 

      If you haven't experienced or felt this type of dedication to your hobby, then one thing is clear - you're limiting your knowledge, and furtheralong, this means quality of sound experience may also be limited. If there's no curiosity, there is no knowledge, which furtheralong could lead to a satisfying but, on the whole, still "subpar" experience, rather than enjoying an even fuller experience that you could have had.

 

     It just gets old seeing the some on this thread continually question what others are finding what seems to be consistency through the years (which is a testimony of its own), which they have probably found due to a passionate curiosity for their hobby. Esoteric research is ultimately, a form of inventiveness, and in this hobby, often leads to better sound! Which is what we're here for! Why not share it!?

 

     If there's anything that head-fi has proven through all these years, this is it. Esoteric research does lead do a better sound. It's the bleeding edge, the fringe experiences, the eccentric people that make all the difference in the world as well. We see this over and over again, and that is what has made Head-fi such an intriguing place. The love and dedication is here, to fuel the innovation!

 

In the end, sound is perception. Perception is critical hearing. The role of perceptionate critical hearing leads us to ask "how might I be able to improve my sound"? And this is where things get scientific and inventive!

 

Edited by Hennyo - 9/3/11 at 1:15am

I understand what your saying upstate, I agree with spreading the truth, and considering this is the "Sound Science" section it has to be scientific, I should keep that in mind.

Perception is definitely something...

I would just like to attack the "they can hear something that can't be measured".  That is an odd claim but maybe mike has something to say about that?  Is it literally saying "I can hear a difference between these two HDMI cables that a machine can not?"  I don't think it is.  I always thought it meant the artistic side of things, that the individual perception that someone has is what makes there work unique.  A bias towards a particular freq band, colour, ingredient, perhaps? 

 

What made the quote fall flat is that you can measure sound, obviously.  You could set a mic up in a hall and compare a previously perfect recording in that hall to what is being played live, and warn the player who is playing incorrectly in that frequency band, the program could measure delay between notes, all would do a better job then the brain.  Autotune is a good example of tuning off key vocals, no human could possibly compete. 

 

I'm not following you?????????  What can be heard but not measured?

 

You should, because you have been singing the same tone the entire time ;)

Let me clarify what stance I am taking, lets look at the definition for hearing, "Hearing (or audition; adjectival form: "auditory" or "aural") is the ability to perceive sound by detecting vibrations through an organ such as the ear.^["

See one word in there that I kept mentioning?  Perceive.  You essentially hear what is NOT reality, you can hear what isn't there with perception.  That should clarify I hope.

It actually sounds like a riddle.  "What can be heard but not measured?"  Individual hearing of course!  Oh wait, hearing tests, ****.  You get what I mean.  You can't measure how much more detailed the sound is through the gold plated TOSLINK cable (never understood gold plated optical cables) then the standard one.  If you did, the measurement would be inconclusive.  It would appear to have no difference, and in reality, there isn't but the invdividual is hearing differences that are placebo.

Also, can we measure the sound stage in a recording?

We can measure the sound stage (In the sense of L, R channel seperation) of a recording.  We can not however measure how you percieve that.  It is hard to get this point of perception across.  We can measure anything that is real but not what your mind creates.  That is why we all hear differently, "you said illegal", "no, I said legal".  Anyone? :P

This is such a complex topic...  Anyone heard virtual barber shop? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

Binaural recordings sound amazing and from a technical point this is simply a left and a right channel.  Yet we percieve it as full 3D audio.  Get my point?  You hear positioning that really isn't there.  Give it a shot and you will understand what I mean by not measuring perception.  "How far was the guy playing the guitar?" sort of thing ;)

EDIT:  In brackets

Edited by K93George - 9/2/11 at 11:14pm

IC, word games....      But that's not science.

 

Of course.  Sound stage is usually put in a recording by the mixing engineer.  They can make it super large or shrink it down to mono.  Sound stage has been measured and reproduced.  It's in the DSPs in your computer.  It's even in your surround receiver, where you can make the room smaller, larger or change the shape.  Heck, you can even choose to listen in a famous hall, like Albert Hall.    Even my old CRT TV has a DSP that increases the sound stage. 

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard the barber shop... very cool illusion.

 

You have a point that We can not however measure how you percieve [a recording]   any more than we can measure what a color looks like to you.

 

You just ignored my entire post... That's not very nice.

 

Ahh, well. Happy trails to you Mr Upstate. May your story be a great one!
 

 

Edited by Hennyo - 9/2/11 at 11:52pm

Good information here Mikey! Thanks for shedding some light on this... And yes... Every single Thread like this I've seen Upstate has been in... He likes these threads.... nothing against that. I'm just really sick of a nauseous yelling match... and verbose gross exaggeration / ignoring of what people are writing... No more yelling match. I just think he should stop posting in threads like these..

 

Hennyo, do you have any graphs showing a difference between cables?

As for ears, the problem is that they're connected to an idiosyncratic device that filters audio input through beliefs and folklore. It's unreliable, and that's easily demonstrated.

And I see we're back at relying on possible unknowns as proof that something exists.

Nonsense.

That a scientific theory might be inaccurate is no proof that magic exists.

Also, one of the nice things about unknowns is that they amass hard evidence of existence before they are understood. Elements, particles and much else are inferred before they're discovered and understood.

In a cable, there is inductance, resistance and capacitance. They are interconnected and laws govern that. This has been understood for well over 120 years. If a fourth force interacted, we'd get anomalous readings from resistance, capacifance and inductance. We wouldn't understand the fourth force, but there would be solid proof that it existed. Yet it doesn't.

It should be noted that there is nothing unique about audio. Electricity is electricity. If there were unusual measurements indicating other properties, they would have shown up in the - literally - hundreds of millions of tests and measurements conducted over a century. If something else was going on, someone would have found it by now. And, no, it wouldn't be found by some grifter stuffing garden hoses in his garage.

Erik,

The graph can be printed, I will get a fMRI scan and you will see for yourself what the graphs look like ;)