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Some OVERRATED High End Gear. - Page 10

post #136 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by oqvist View Post

It was more they met to fierce competition and couldn´t cope with it. But yes my brothers kyro is still very nice. Teminds me very much of the old superior trinitron based CRTs.


I'm going a little off-topic here, BUT....

On my PC I have both a Dell U3011 (one of the best 30" LCDs, and costs ~$1600) and an old Sony GDM-FW900 Trinitron CRT (which cost me $85). If I had to pick only one of them to keep, I would pick the CRT every time without hesitation.
post #137 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimants View Post

I got the Panasonic TCP50S1, which was their flagship at the time. I got it because from what I was reading, panasonic manufactures the panels used in the Kuro displays, but pioneer takes care of the rest, such as the backlighting and power management, and thats how they achieve that absurd contrast ratio.



From what l heard, when Pioneer stopped doing TV's some of their engineers went to Panasonic.

 

 

post #138 of 330


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post

So what High End Equipment do you think of as being Overrated? and I don't mean just the wicked expensive cost no object items. how each of us "rates" an item is almost entirely subjective. So I would say that whether something is overrated has more to do with perceived performance than perceived value. If something is the very best then I would argue that it cannot be overrated, nor can it be overpriced. What price is appropriate for the best?

 

Some current or almost current products that I view as dramatically Overrated are:

 

The Berkeley Alpha DAC - I've listened to this DAC in several systems and every-time thought it was OK, but nothing special. With many pundits touting that it is one of the very best DAC's regardless of price I find it very overrated.

 

Benchmark DAC-1 - Four years ago I purchased one and ultimately found it wanting, now there are many DAC's in the sub $800 range that dramatically outperform it. Yet it is still touted as being top tier and a great value by many, way overrated.

 

Digital Amplifiers - I had the Bel Canto Reference 1000's and I've listened to others. Without fail I have found them all to be decidedly unengaging, and not especially good amplifiers. My back and I so wanted to like the Reference 1000's. To go from 90 lb. mono block amps to 13 lb monos would have been fantastic. Not to mention that the digital amps made a significant difference in my monthly electric bill, but alas they don't stand up to more conventional A/AB amplifiers. Overrated.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post




I'm not really surprised, I think most people that have a fairly limited experience with high-end audio might think of that kind of sound as what high-end is supposed to sound like. That's certainly what my Krell/Wilson experience was - and those are two of biggest, most well known names in high-end.. There is also a certain set of people that simply want even the tiniest flaw in a recording to be ruthlessly revealed with ten thousand floodlights - rendering perhaps 5% of their music collection listenable. I can't stand that approach, but I also don't like when a system is so warm and forgiving that detail is stamped out, and any kind of ambiance in the recording is lost.

 

If a demo is being played too loud, I just walk out. There was a really fascinating article on Tyll Hertsens blog about what happens to your hearing when you are exposed to music at a level that is too loud. Here's the gist of it:

 

"Generally speaking, the acoustic reflex kicks in at about 85dB SPL for single frequency tones, but may activate as low as 75dB SPL for broadband sounds like pink noise or music. I was surprised to hear the number was that low; 75dB SPL is about what I would consider a solid, but not loud, listening level. My normal listening level is about 70dB SPL, and I think most would consider that a fairly modest level.

 

Armed with the above information, let’s walk into a demo room at a trade show playing their system at 85dB SPL. Within about 100mSec --- way before you take your seat in the sweet spot --- your acoustic reflex kicks in. With 55dB SPL self-generated noise from the muscles now tensing in your ears, and a 20dB attenuation to the lower half of the audible spectrum, the signal to noise ratio drops to a miserable 10dB in the lows and some mids, and will appear to have a significantly tipped-up frequency response."

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/loud-music-sucks

 

A salesman that is blasting music is not someone I want to talk to, or buy anything from.

 


 

I think Wilson should be off the "overrated clinical non-musical" speaker list. I just recently auditioned their latest entry level after years (probably over a decade) of avoiding the brand like a plague; I was very impressed with the musicality and technical ability of the new Wilson. The small (ish) Wilson was driven by a Pilinus integrated. The voicing is natural and sounds unforced, and the music flowed with ease. I didn't test the more expensive Wilson as those would be out of my price range.

 

To keep with the spirit of this thread - Yes, DAC-1 is overrated, as is Alpha, although I have always tested Alpha with more expensive DAC, so my impression of Alpha may not be entirely accurate.

post #139 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimants View Post

I got the Panasonic TCP50S1, which was their flagship at the time. I got it because from what I was reading, panasonic manufactures the panels used in the Kuro displays, but pioneer takes care of the rest, such as the backlighting and power management, and thats how they achieve that absurd contrast ratio.


Panasonic manufactured the glass for the Kuro not the panel. Kuro in Japanese means black. And no the back-lighting (there is no back-lighting that comes with the Kuro) and power management have nothing to do with the back levels/contrast ratio of the Kuro. The 9G Kuros have the best blacks/contrast ratio of any Kuro and then you go into the Elite series with there ISF controls and imo its still the best 60" plasma ever made, so far.

post #140 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post

 

I think Wilson should be off the "overrated clinical non-musical" speaker list. I just recently auditioned their latest entry level after years (probably over a decade) of avoiding the brand like a plague; I was very impressed with the musicality and technical ability of the new Wilson. The small (ish) Wilson was driven by a Pilinus integrated. The voicing is natural and sounds unforced, and the music flowed with ease. I didn't test the more expensive Wilson as those would be out of my price range.

 

To keep with the spirit of this thread - Yes, DAC-1 is overrated, as is Alpha, although I have always tested Alpha with more expensive DAC, so my impression of Alpha may not be entirely accurate.


 

I've always been impressed with the Wilson WATT Puppy since I first heard them. They could easily be the last speakers I would have ever had. Very small foot print.

They were very expensive. Over rated for their performance? Only their owners can answer that.

 

post #141 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post





Panasonic manufactured the glass for the Kuro not the panel. Kuro in Japanese means black. And no the back-lighting (there is no back-lighting that comes with the Kuro) and power management have nothing to do with the back levels/contrast ratio of the Kuro. The 9G Kuros have the best blacks/contrast ratio of any Kuro and then you go into the Elite series with there ISF controls and imo its still the best 60" plasma ever made, so far.


The "Kuro" always made me laugh, in Macedonian it means something entirely different. tongue.gif

 

But to date, the Pioneer Elite Plasma Kuros (giggle...) remain to this day the best picture quality I've ever seen. Too bad they got out of the business years ago.

 

post #142 of 330
The problem with Plasmas...to skip all the really technical details...is that the better you want the black levels, the more expensive it is to manufacture. It's very similar to trying to eliminate distortion in audio components, except a lot more expensive because it requires special equipment. I have no doubt that Panasonic and Samsung can make panels just as good if not better than the Kuros, it's just a question of how many they'd actually sell at such a high price, especially when their other panels offer 90% of that quality at 25% of the price. In order to sell any, they'd have to operate the plants at a loss. Which is what happened to Pioneer.
post #143 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post

The problem with Plasmas...to skip all the really technical details...is that the better you want the black levels, the more expensive it is to manufacture. It's very similar to trying to eliminate distortion in audio components, except a lot more expensive because it requires special equipment. I have no doubt that Panasonic and Samsung can make panels just as good if not better than the Kuros, it's just a question of how many they'd actually sell at such a high price, especially when their other panels offer 90% of that quality at 25% of the price. In order to sell any, they'd have to operate the plants at a loss. Which is what happened to Pioneer.


In comparison to the "inferior" LCD TVs, plasma panels have always been cheaper to manufacture. But it appears that the uber high end videophile television market (which was pretty much just the Kuro) was the issue for Pioneer's decline with respect to televisions.

 

post #144 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post




In comparison to the "inferior" LCD TVs, plasma panels have always been cheaper to manufacture. But it appears that the uber high end videophile television market (which was pretty much just the Kuro) was the issue for Pioneer's decline with respect to televisions.

 


Yes, but only in large sizes, and only if you're not trying to achieve perfect black levels. The black levels are always better than those on LCDs, but never truly pitch-black because then the price would go through the roof.

Also, if you look at the price of the Kuro when it was out it was very expensive compared to even the next-best option - $6500 vs ~$3000 (for 60-inch models). And when you buy a TV it's not like you're going to replace it and try out other ones like with audio equipment, unless maybe if you were really disappointed with it (which DEFINITELY wouldn't have happened with a Kuro wink.gif). So the people who wanted and could afford a Kuro bought one, and then that was the end of it. It was pretty much impossible to get any new customers with that sort of price.

If it had nothing to do with manufacturing costs Pioneer would have ended up lowering the prices to be more in line with their competitors, at which point they'd have taken over nearly the entire plasma market. But they couldn't.
Edited by Manyak - 9/8/11 at 7:28pm
post #145 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post



Yes, but only in large sizes, and only if you're not trying to achieve perfect black levels. The black levels are always better than those on LCDs, but never truly pitch-black because then the price would go through the roof.

Also, if you look at the price of the Kuro when it was out it was very expensive compared to even the next-best option - $6500 vs ~$3000 (for 60-inch models). And when you buy a TV it's not like you're going to replace it and try out other ones like with audio equipment, unless maybe if you were really disappointed with it (which DEFINITELY wouldn't have happened with a Kuro wink.gif). So the people who wanted and could afford a Kuro bought one, and then that was the end of it. It was pretty much impossible to get any new customers with that sort of price.

If it had nothing to do with manufacturing costs Pioneer would have ended up lowering the prices to be more in line with their competitors, at which point they'd have taken over nearly the entire plasma market. But they couldn't.


I don't think it has to do with plasma vs. lcd costs, rather high end videophile quality vs. good enough. Now with plasmas, one just has more to work with.

post #146 of 330
Thread Starter 

Enough on TV's already. This is an Audio Forum after all.

post #147 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post

Enough on TV's already. This is an Audio Forum after all.


So...How's the audio quality on the Kuro Elites?  biggrin.gif

 

post #148 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by frahengeo View Post




So...How's the audio quality on the Kuro Elites?  biggrin.gif

 



l've got a Yamaha YSP-5100 soundbar or sound projector under my 50" Pioneer Kuro monitor which sounds pretty good.

 

 


Edited by David1961 - 9/9/11 at 12:41am
post #149 of 330

Ok, if your looking for a great home theater but don't want to make your movie viewing a house hold event.

 

BDP-95/93--->use HDMI port two connected to a Realiser--->Toslink from the Realiser (PRIR's made at AIX studios) to a W4S DAC---> interconnects connected to a Liquid Fire amp--->HD6's.

And yes I use a Kuro 60" 141 monitor connected to my BDP-95 via HDMI port 1, but the monitor has no tuner or speakers. And of course my Kuro is ISF calibrated. wink_face.gif

 

btw, this sound system will best most home theater sound systems.

 

 


Edited by sillysally - 9/9/11 at 1:51am
post #150 of 330

Speaking of oppo now this is an overrated brand

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