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The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth! - Page 4

post #46 of 66
Quote:
OTOH, Head-fi members feel that the most expensive the product the better it will perform.
This is not accurate. There are a few members who seem to feel this way, but as far as the unwashed masses on Head-Fi go, a lot of people are looking for inexpensive products that will perform as well or better than expensive ones.
post #47 of 66
I once decided to purchase Sterophile recommended (and very inexpensive) Radio Shack's solid core hookup wire cable to make my own speaker cables. And I was doing this mostly to compare them with some speaker cables (West Penn Wire #226 Type CL3R, also not very expensive), that I got when purchasing my speakers.

I was very familiar with the sound of my system using the Wess Penns. Built the other one using some kind of vari-strand topology (4 braids). Couldn't tell a bit of a difference after weeks using them, and then coming back to the others. My system is just entry level quality though, but relatively very good sounding compared to many good setups I've heard. I used my Stereophile Test CD 2 to scan all the frequencies with both cables and measure any diff. using an SPL meter (Radio Shask analog). Interestingly, there was a difference. In the last octave, from 10KHz to 20KHz, the Wess Penss were about half a Db louder than my custom made cables. This Radio Shack SPL meter's accuracy in the high freqs. is questionable, but it was consistently slightly louder (in that last octave) using the Wess Penns instead of the Radio Shacks. That actually goes a bit in favor of the Radio Shack, since my system has a sound on the bright side of things.

That only with respect to volume. Whether there were phase differences, or differences in the ways separated frequencies get "smeared" (a big issue according to cable manufacturers), I don't have any ways to measure that. In any case, even that .5 dB measurable volume difference performed through my speakers, to my ears was unnoticeable. No difference in soundstage, imaging, clarity, etc. when playing many sorts of music.

In a recent South FL meet I compared stock vs. Cardas upgrade cables for the HD600's, did the comparison using HR-2 and Headroom Max amplifiers. People around were speaking, and I did this comparison in about 5 minutes, so not very representative set of conditions for critical comparisons using open headphones. I couldn't hear a bit of a difference when switching cables. When switchin amplifiers I could tell, and incidentally, I preferred the sound of the HR2 slightly better (hard to exactly explain why though). But switching cables did nothing for me under the conditions and the given the brief exposure. However, other headfiers there allegedly did hear a difference when swapping the cables.
post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by radrd
This is not accurate. There are a few members who seem to feel this way, but as far as the unwashed masses on Head-Fi go, a lot of people are looking for inexpensive products that will perform as well or better than expensive ones.
Actually, since I was originally one of these guys, I believe it is more accurate to say that while we will go for the high value low budget cables, we still believed that the more expensive cables performed better. And there's a lot to be said about that. Take Meier's new sennheiser cable - it's cheap and doesn't look special. Those who want a budget cable may go for it but do they believe the zu or silver dragons aren't any better? More likely they think they are better but don't want to shell out the beans.

Luckily for me, I no longer believe cables are worth the money. They may sound different but I don't know if I can say that they sound better. Maybe I'm just indecisive that way. *WHEW* That saved my wallet a good chunk!

Oh yeah, I find it *comforting* that the designer of the Phoenix/Orion dipole speakers, consistantly reputed as some of the best speakers ever made, if not the best, recommends the use of lamp cord for speaker cables, as long as it is thick gauge.
post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
but what if, textual, nordost actually believed what they said!? could you assume they still know what they're doing?
If I knew they based their products upon a faulty design theory, then I could safely assume they don't know what they're doing and their product most likely will suck. Determining that from the sales pitch seems to be the wrong way to do it. Seems like the better way to do that would be to examine the product itself, problems with objective evaluation of sound quality aside. But, you're Orpheus and what the hell do I know?

Quote:
Originally posted by Edwood
Many manufacturers like to leave out info to make themselves seem superior.
...
Er uh, what was this thread about? .....
-Ed
Well, this was a pitch for a G4 over a P4, so it's not the best case I could make. But that doesn't mean Apple can't put together a faster computer than the x86 world, as it has in the past and might in the future.
what's the thread about? dunno, take your best guess
post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by ooheadsoo
Actually, since I was originally one of these guys, I believe it is more accurate to say that while we will go for the high value low budget cables, we still believed that the more expensive cables performed better. And there's a lot to be said about that. Take Meier's new sennheiser cable - it's cheap and doesn't look special. Those who want a budget cable may go for it but do they believe the zu or silver dragons aren't any better? More likely they think they are better but don't want to shell out the beans.

Luckily for me, I no longer believe cables are worth the money. They may sound different but I don't know if I can say that they sound better. Maybe I'm just indecisive that way. *WHEW* That saved my wallet a good chunk!

Oh yeah, I find it *comforting* that the designer of the Phoenix/Orion dipole speakers, consistantly reputed as some of the best speakers ever made, if not the best, recommends the use of lamp cord for speaker cables, as long as it is thick gauge.
that's good news, as I happen to have a lot of lamp cord
post #51 of 66
Actually, I decided that in order to stop myself from having a constant case of upgraditis, I would get some powered monitors and do away with speaker cables once and for all! Hehe, just XLR/rca cables left
post #52 of 66
I'm biased.

But look up some of my work with time delay reflectometry. There seems to be a direct correlation between what you see on the TDR screen and what you hear in your system -- case in point, the unusual reflection of the VD Nites and their unfocused sound.

I have a Tektronix 1503B TDR on the way that will let me measure cables with much greater precision.
post #53 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by ooheadsoo
Actually, I decided that in order to stop myself from having a constant case of upgraditis, I would get some powered monitors and do away with speaker cables once and for all! Hehe, just XLR/rca cables left
How many different XLR cables will you be trying, including upgrades?
post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by eric343
But look up some of my work with time delay reflectometry.
Where am I looking? And what the heck is it? Reflections within a listening environment? Different speeds of different frequencies? Or the amount of time for a glazed look to overcome the listener who does not comprehend?
post #55 of 66
Sorry, I spaced out there -- I meant time domain reflectometry.

http://www.tscm.com/tdr.html
http://www.tektronix.com/Measurement.../&FrameSet=mbd
http://www.measurement.tm.agilent.co...tegory713.html

Yeah it is pretty technical. Basically, it sends a pulse down the cable and shows the reflection. An ideal cable would reflect a pulse that is exactly the same as the one you sent into the cable, or not reflect any pulse at all (in a matched impedance condition).
post #56 of 66
Eric, this TDR mumbo-jumbo sounds very interesting. Please report back with your findings!
post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by eric343
Basically, it sends a pulse down the cable and shows the reflection. An ideal cable would reflect a pulse that is exactly the same as the one you sent into the cable, or not reflect any pulse at all (in a matched impedance condition).
I'd be curious to see the results of my 'latest & greatest' which is unorthodox regarding electrical current & time. http://www.audience-av.com/cabledescription.htm

"There is a common misconception that loudspeaker cable must be large in diameter and have a low DC resistance in order to provide good bass response. DC resistance is relatively unimportant. What really matters is the characteristic impedance (AC resistance) of the cable. Music is an AC signal after all. "
post #58 of 66
I'm rolling on the floor now AC resistance at any frequency cannot be lower than the DC resistance. So if you want your AC resistance to be low for whatever frequency, what should your DC resistance be?

Oh, and about that comparison between 75ohm digital coax cable used as RCA interconnect and actual RCA ICs (on the first page)... I am pretty sure that dedicated ICs are supposed to approach 0ohm, not 75ohm. There's your huge sonic difference explained right there
post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs
I'm rolling on the floor now AC resistance at any frequency cannot be lower than the DC resistance. So if you want your AC resistance to be low for whatever frequency, what should your DC resistance be?
Im not an engineer, just a listener. Maybe 'Audience' could use your insight to improve their products? Here's the e-mail of the Hong Kong dealer: serenityaudio@netvigator.com
post #60 of 66
Quote:
If I knew they based their products upon a faulty design theory, then I could safely assume they don't know what they're doing and their product most likely will suck. Determining that from the sales pitch seems to be the wrong way to do it. Seems like the better way to do that would be to examine the product itself, problems with objective evaluation of sound quality aside. But, you're Orpheus and what the hell do I know?
well, i'm just Apollo's son. that's all. ....i did go to CES a couple years ago, and actually went to the Nordost room. they had all their wires there and i talked to their rep too. and man... if the cable desginers didn't believe their pitch, that rep sure did! he went on and on about their propogation speeds and all that. i dunno, i felt kinda funny listening to the guy.... reminds me of college, when those Christian zealots would ramble about the ground yelling that rock-n-rollers were going to hell!

anyway... if you think their products sound better, then heck, they do. people pay $50 mil for a Van Gogh... why not pay $6000 for some teflon covered silver plated pure copper cable necklace for your equipment? to me, they're the same thing: expensive decoration. but if i were the owner of such a cable, i would frame it and put it up on the wall, so people would see it better.

just kidding guys.... couldn't resist.
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