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Upgrading sources, sound quality of optical audio questions

post #1 of 16
8/29/11 at 8:16pm
Thread Starter 

Alright guys, I'm a long time lurker, but I finally have a problem that i can't easily solve by use of the search function. Forgive me if this is a bit long winded, but there's multiple aspects to this. 

 

Current Setup:

flac->winamp->Realtek ALC889 (integrated audio)->optical spdif output->onkyo tx-sr600 (av receiver)->ath-a700s

 

i've been wondering about the benefits of upgrading my setup, and i thought that i would start with the source, as that is usually the weakest point for most beginners. i was thinking of getting the Asus Xonar STX sound card to replace the Realtek audio. I realize the normal thing to do for many is to get a USB DAC and external amp of some sort, but I was thinking of the sound card because I do game frequently, it has received many favourable reviews, and looks to be a good DAC and amp all together for starters, and a decent price. 

 

however, since i am using the optical output on my motherboard, wouldn't that eliminate any interference since it is all digital? would getting a dedicated sound card produce and differences? i know my headphones as of now are pretty basic, and wouldn't benefit much from an amp, but i am also planning on getting some hd580s or 600s sometime in the future. 

 

with that said, should i upgrade my source now? and if i did, would i want to use the amp on the card itself, or the headphone jack in my receiver? or should i ditch them both in light of getting a dedicated amp? (i was thinking of something along the lines of the Little Dot MKIII, or something else in the $200-$250 price point)

 

sorry if that's a lot to read, but i tried to spell it out as plainly as i could, and i would appreciate if anyone could help me with this. thanks smile.gif

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post #2 of 16
8/30/11 at 8:51am

Hi there,

 

I'm also a fellow lurker. ;)

 

For starters, I recommend getting a NuForce Udac 2 USB at around US$120++.

 

I use it for gaming and slightly serious music listening to FLAC files on my computer.

The RCA L/R at the back allows one to plug in external speakers. The headphone jack in front is also handy.

 

This should be a significant sonic upgrade from the ourput of the computer motherboard.

Yes, you may be using the digital output from your Realtek motherboard chip but that is the weak link you are trying to fix!

Not all DAC (Digital to Analogue converters) are the same.

Usually the computer motherboard DACs are not as good as a dedicated DAC such as the one I recommended.


Edited by Lord Soth - 8/30/11 at 8:57am
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post #3 of 16
8/30/11 at 10:43am
Thread Starter 

alright, thanks for your input. smily_headphones1.gif how upgradable would you say the uDac2 is? it seems like a good starter choice, but how well would it work driving more high end headphones? another question, should i utilize the headphone jack on it at all, or just put it straight through to an amp or my av receiver?

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post #4 of 16
8/31/11 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajs1992 View Post

alright, thanks for your input. smily_headphones1.gif how upgradable would you say the uDac2 is? it seems like a good starter choice, but how well would it work driving more high end headphones? another question, should i utilize the headphone jack on it at all, or just put it straight through to an amp or my av receiver?


Upgradable? Not sure as to what you mean by this?

 

For headphones, the headphone impedance is 16-300 Ohm.

That sort of covers even the mighty Sennheiser HD 800 or legendary HD 650.

 

There is a Digital coaxial RCA Output for connection to your receiver if you want.

 

You can check out the official specs at :-

 

http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/iconudac2/index.php

 

There is no "correct" way to use this DAC.

 

You can plug in mini-speakers to the external RCA output (at the back) which is what I'm using for my own laptop.

 

Or you can plug in headphones into the front for headphone listening.

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post #5 of 16
8/31/11 at 6:19am

I would recommend specifically not getting the Nuforce uDAC. It has serious channel balance problems, it clips any 0dBFS peaks in your music, has an output impedance a tad on the high side for your headphones and way too much maximum gain (starts clipping properly with the volume knob past 1 o'clock assuming maximum volume in your OS).

Buying the STX to simply use its optical output is, as you say, virtually pointless. The headphone amp on the STX also has an annoyingly high output impedance - very happy driving 300ohm Sennheisers, but not as well suited to your 64ohm a700s.

 

In fact, I would see about upgrading your headphones before you start purchasing various monstrously expensive amplifiers/sources. That would be a vastly better use of your money.

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post #6 of 16
8/31/11 at 6:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Soth View Post

Upgradable? Not sure as to what you mean by this?

Well, I meant more of a generalization of how high end it is. Since many people out here have massively expensive systems, would my money be better spent if i spent a little more to get a better DAC, or is this a shining star in it's price category that can only be beaten by much more expensive DACs that are out of my price range?

 


 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Willakan View Post

I would recommend specifically not getting the Nuforce uDAC. It has serious channel balance problems, it clips any 0dBFS peaks in your music, has an output impedance a tad on the high side for your headphones and way too much maximum gain (starts clipping properly with the volume knob past 1 o'clock assuming maximum volume in your OS).

The headphone amp on the STX also has an annoyingly high output impedance - very happy driving 300ohm Sennheisers, but not as well suited to your 64ohm a700s.

 

In fact, I would see about upgrading your headphones before you start purchasing various monstrously expensive amplifiers/sources. That would be a vastly better use of your money.

Alright. What if i bypassed the headphone circuit in the DAC, and just used its RCA outputs to an amp? Would i still have problems with clipping?

 

And as for output impedance, i'm not terribly concerned that my A700s won't fit with the system. I'm planning on getting some higher impedance headphones like the HD600s not too far into the future, but it still would be nice if my A700s worked with my upgraded setup.
 

 

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post #7 of 16
8/31/11 at 6:55am

The uDAC's line outputs also clip. It really is a horribly designed piece of kit - certainly not a "shining star" by any stretch of the imagination.


Edited by Willakan - 8/31/11 at 6:56am
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post #8 of 16
8/31/11 at 8:34am

Oh boy.....

 

Not this again!

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/483510/udac-channel-imbalance

 

All I can say is that there is someone out there in the WWW with a personal axe to grind against the NuForce uDAC2.

He even created a special web page and blog on this. That also resulted in a flame war.

 

I don't plan to re-kindle that flame war.

 

I just want to state that I did not experience any clipping nor channel imbalance.

And so did many others if you google those threads.

 

I suggest that you can check on the user reviews on Amazon.com before you make your final decision.

 

You can see that the vast majority of users are very happy with their purchase of the uDAC 2.

I'm also one of them.

 

PEACE.

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post #9 of 16
8/31/11 at 9:30am

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to troll. This product has problems. Just because you didn't find them audibly problematic with your unit doesn't mean others would not find them audible. In that price bracket, there are plenty of products which do not have documented and audible problems. Why settle for the knowingly flawed? ("Because I didn't notice the flaws myself" not being an acceptable answer)

 

The ramblings about the blog on which the product was criticised being produced for that exclusive purpose are just plain wrong. The blog in question criticised and praised lots of products - the latter more than the former. The criticism in this case was substantiated by Nuforce admitting those were normal measurements for its product.

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post #10 of 16
8/31/11 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 

Hmm. well I'll take those said flaws with a bit of salt, but since there seems to be no overwhelming consensus on what to get? do you have any other suggestions for a DAC in the $100-$200 range?

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post #11 of 16
9/1/11 at 9:17pm
Thread Starter 

bump, if anyone has more input.

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post #12 of 16
9/1/11 at 10:40pm
There's no doubt that there's a huge channel imbalance* at very low volumes where the right side is almost 10 times louder than the left side (approx 10 dB), that is very problematic if you plan to use the uDac-2 with sensitive IEMs.

*at least with some uDac-2, I'm not sure if it's the case with every unit.
Edited by khaos974 - 9/1/11 at 10:42pm
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post #13 of 16
9/2/11 at 1:28am

I'm not making this up. I would link the article explaining the issues, but links to that website are forbidden (for various reasons).

Linking into that, I can wholeheartedly recommend the amplifier designed by the owner of the aforementioned site. Give the "O2 Amplifier" a google. I believe a Mr Slim is offering to build it for a very reasonable $150.

As for DACs, the Essence is a very good product - combined with an external amplifier to solve its output impedance problem  (if you want to drive low impedance phones, otherwise the onboard amp is pretty decent) it's an excellent buy.

 

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post #14 of 16
9/3/11 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 

I'll give that amp a look, thanks. I was planning on using the Essence as a DAC in the end anyways, coupled with an external amp. So I guess I'll go ahead and start saving money for that, along with some new headphones. Thanks for all your input smily_headphones1.gif

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post #15 of 16
9/3/11 at 9:15pm

I doubt a sound card or a budget DAC will sound much better, if at all, than your receiver. If you want the sound card for other purpose that will be another matter.

 

IMO your weakest link is your headphone. If it were me, my upgrade sequence will be, from the most impact to the least in SQ:

 

- headphone

- source

- amp

 

 

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