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LA7000 vs LCD-2 - Can they even be compared? - Page 3

post #31 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

The amplifier should only amplify the signal, nothing more... Without coloration, without distortion. However, many people prefer distortion and coloration in order to mitigate flaws of their headphones.

 

I dont see why I would want to use neutral amplifier to be honest...

 

No headphone is perfect - that is why I WANT to use a colored amp/DAC...

 

Lets take the HD800,yes it is treble heavy, yes the bass is less prominent, but that is exactly why you want to use that slightly colored amp to boost certain areas and tame other ones... IMO there is no "perfect" headphone and that is when colored, whether tube or SS amps come into play.

 

Other than that popcorn.gif

post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

I dont see why I would want to use neutral amplifier to be honest...

 

No headphone is perfect - that is why I WANT to use a colored amp/DAC...

 

Lets take the HD800,yes it is treble heavy, yes the bass is less prominent, but that is exactly why you want to use that slightly colored amp to boost certain areas and tame other ones... IMO there is no "perfect" headphone and that is when colored, whether tube or SS amps come into play.

 

Other than that popcorn.gif

 

To amplify the signal to be loud enough and/or to lower the output impedance...

 

No headphone is perfect - this is why you should use an equalizer if you feel there are any areas which need an improvement. Linear phase is most probably the best for your purpose...

 

Coloured DAC is a wrong DAC. DAC needs to be precise as possible... neutral, accurate, transparent. The same goes with amplifiers if you are serious about getting the closest-to-source quality from your gear.

post #33 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

The same goes with amplifiers if you are serious about getting the closest-to-source quality from your gear.

 

What if your more concerned with enjoying the music?  All recording people have will not always be up to par.  

 

I agree about a neutral amp and dac.  that why I like the headamps offerings.  I have the GS-X coming, from experience with the GS-1 this is one of the most neutral and transparent amp out.  However, I did not enjoy my music with the GS-1 + HD800 combo thus comes a amp to add a little color.

post #34 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

To amplify the signal to be loud enough and/or to lower the output impedance...

 

No headphone is perfect - this is why you should use an equalizer if you feel there are any areas which need an improvement. Linear phase is most probably the best for your purpose...

 

Coloured DAC is a wrong DAC. DAC needs to be precise as possible... neutral, accurate, transparent. The same goes with amplifiers if you are serious about getting the closest-to-source quality from your gear.

 

Yes. You re right about the DAC, although I think a slightly smoother sounding DAC shouldnt hurt (Maybe not ideal for LCD-2s)

You also might want a smooth/ slightly warm amp...

You see the Audeze LCD-2s is not the ideal headphone for comparison... They dont have much treble energy... They are not airy.

 

But with most high-end HP, you might wish to tame the highs a little. This is when tube amps or SS come into play.

 

Neutral amps dont do some hp justice IMO...

Also, how do you know if you the song is reproduced faithfully? With LCD-2s for ex. you can be missing some information in the highs, whereas with HD800 and such, you do not...

 

Now this is perfectly fine, but IMO LCD-2s is not a prime example of 100% neutral headphones...

post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

Yes. You re right about the DAC, although I think a slightly smoother sounding DAC shouldnt hurt (Maybe not ideal for LCD-2s)

You also might want a smooth/ slightly warm amp...

You see the Audeze LCD-2s is not the ideal headphone for comparison... They dont have much treble energy... They are not airy.

 

But with most high-end HP, you might wish to tame the highs a little. This is when tube amps or SS come into play.

 

Neutral amps dont do some hp justice IMO...

Also, how do you know if you the song is reproduced faithfully? With LCD-2s for ex. you can be missing some information in the highs, whereas with HD800 and such, you do not...

 

Now this is perfectly fine, but IMO LCD-2s is not a prime example of 100% neutral headphones...

 

Audeze LCD-2 rev2 are actually a great example of one of the most neutral headphones available on the market...

 

http://jyxo.info/uploads/82/82c6e7f896df38e1601c8574df38efde2a2feb9f.jpg

 

The most perfect bass and mids I have ever seen along with not overemphasised treble... A very unique graph that made my decision even easier. I do not feel a need to EQ them as I love the overall texture I keep getting with a bit lowered treble... However, I can always EQ them to neutrality as I have their measurement available.

 

If you feel there is not enough "air", just use an equalizer to emphasise regions from 10khz... It's going to work much better than any possible mod or amplifier and you can get quite easily what you want this way.

post #36 of 45

Man, you've been preaching the gospel. tongue.gif

 

There's 2/3 camps here. Those who prefer musicality strictly (ears). Those who prefer measurements (objectively)

and then those who use a bit of both.

 

So there isn't really a right or wrong here. Take the HD800 as you said being one of the best measuring headphones.

Yet, they are "by the general consensus" most enjoyed through a tube amp. 

 

Maybe you'd prefer a SS amp with the HD800 and that's fine, of course. Who's to say neutral = enjoyable though.

 

And to stay somewhat on topic at least half-ass. LCD-2 rev 2> LA700>LCD-2 Rev1

post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Audeze LCD-2 rev2 are actually a great example of one of the most neutral headphones available on the market...

 

http://jyxo.info/uploads/82/82c6e7f896df38e1601c8574df38efde2a2feb9f.jpg

 

The most perfect bass and mids I have ever seen along with not overemphasised treble... A very unique graph that made my decision even easier. I do not feel a need to EQ them as I love the overall texture I keep getting with a bit lowered treble... However, I can always EQ them to neutrality as I have their measurement available.

 

If you feel there is not enough "air", just use an equalizer to emphasise regions from 10khz... It's going to work much better than any possible mod or amplifier and you can get quite easily what you want this way.

 

Again I am not saying they are colored... Just not 100% neutral.

Also, again, its graphs vs ears. What you perceive as enough treble, others might see as not enough...

Now, what if I dont EQ headphones? I simply have a habit of listening to unEQd headphones, in the way they were meant to sound....

If that wasnt the case, sure I can EQ them, but I dont want to... Following your logic, I would be changing the way their manufacturer intended them to sound. I d be voiding their characteristics. Making their unique signature plain and well different.

Now if I were to get a slightly colored amp, I wont be altering the headphones sound excesively, merely little nuances here and there...

 

Im not foulting your approach... its perfectly fine. Its just that there is no general rule to what one might like. Different ears, graphs wont help much... You were lucky you nailed it on your first try.

 

I followed the graphs... and dint have much success, so hoping to be lucky the second time around...

If I will then it will be only thanks to the folks around here, NOT graphs.

Just to clarify, I am NOT going to use perfectly neutral, transparent, colorless amp, or even perfectly neutral DAC... Even the headphones are not dead flat...

 

As mentioned above, there is no such a thing, so you  either spend impossible amounts of time on EQ, or buy a slightly colored components to alter the HP sound to your liking, or you are perfectly happy with your current HP as is (not my case right now however)

 

Also, no matter how you try, different HP simply sound well differently... And you cant EQ everything... EQ cetrain parts of the spectrum with certain HP will simply make them sound bad or dull...

 

Just my opinion of course :-)

 

Luke

post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

Man, you've been preaching the gospel. tongue.gif

 

There's 2/3 camps here. Those who prefer musicality strictly (ears). Those who prefer measurements (objectively)

and then those who use a bit of both.

 

So there isn't really a right or wrong here. Take the HD800 as you said being one of the best measuring headphones.

Yet, they are "by the general consensus" most enjoyed through a tube amp. 

 

Maybe you'd prefer a SS amp with the HD800 and that's fine, of course. Who's to say neutral = enjoyable though.

 

And to stay somewhat on topic at least half-ass. LCD-2 rev 2> LA700>LCD-2 Rev1

 

 

Para,

 

You like the LCD-3 better anyway - correct?

post #39 of 45

popcorn.gif

 

in good faith, off course

post #40 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Para,

 

You like the LCD-3 better anyway - correct?

Yea, I do.

post #41 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Audeze LCD-2 rev2 are actually a great example of one of the most neutral headphones available on the market...

 

http://jyxo.info/uploads/82/82c6e7f896df38e1601c8574df38efde2a2feb9f.jpg

 

The most perfect bass and mids I have ever seen along with not overemphasised treble... A very unique graph that made my decision even easier. I do not feel a need to EQ them as I love the overall texture I keep getting with a bit lowered treble... However, I can always EQ them to neutrality as I have their measurement available.

 

If you feel there is not enough "air", just use an equalizer to emphasise regions from 10khz... It's going to work much better than any possible mod or amplifier and you can get quite easily what you want this way.

 

My Grado HP1000 are some of the most neutral headphones according to graphs ever produced, and yet i prefer the sound of my PS1000  wich are far from neutral, suprising?, not at all, different proples have different tastes, they're is no right or wrong here, it's all subjective.

 

 I realize that i'm very fortunate to have an accomodating dealer, they've let me take the PS1000s home with me for three days to try them on  my sound system, once  they even set me up in a listening room for about an hour with some Sennheiser Orpheus.

 

As far as i'm concerned, mesurements are of limited use, they're are just too many variables that come into play.We all have different hearing acuity, different sound systems, different sound preferences, and different musical tastes, and it's the sum of all these factors that will determine if we like what we hear or not.

 

EQ's are ok for fine tuning, but they won't compensate for a lack of transparency, air, or give you a bigger and deeper soundstage.

 

I remember the first time i ever heard Grados they were the RS1s, and at the time i owned Sennheiser HD-600, and the first thing that strucked me was how much more details i was hearing from the RS1s, the soundstage wasn't quite as big as my HD-600, but the detail and midrange presence won me over, soon after i sold my HD-600.

 

Finally, for those of you who know a little bit about cars, if measurments told the whole story, the Mazda MX-5 Miata with it's low power four cylinder engine  wouldn't be one of the most fun to drive car on the market.

post #42 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacker45 View Post

 

My Grado HP1000 are some of the most neutral headphones according to graphs ever produced, and yet i prefer the sound of my PS1000  wich are far from neutral, suprising?, not at all, different proples have different tastes, they're is no right or wrong here, it's all subjective.

 

 I realize that i'm very fortunate to have an accomodating dealer, they've let me take the PS1000s home with me for three days to try them on  my sound system, once  they even set me up in a listening room for about an hour with some Sennheiser Orpheus.

 

As far as i'm concerned, mesurements are of limited use, they're are just too many variables that come into play.We all have different hearing acuity, different sound systems, different sound preferences, and different musical tastes, and it's the sum of all these factors that will determine if we like what we hear or not.

 

EQ's are ok for fine tuning, but they won't compensate for a lack of transparency, air, or give you a bigger and deeper soundstage.

 

I remember the first time i ever heard Grados they were the RS1s, and at the time i owned Sennheiser HD-600, and the first thing that strucked me was how much more details i was hearing from the RS1s, the soundstage wasn't quite as big as my HD-600, but the detail and midrange presence won me over, soon after i sold my HD-600.

 

Finally, for those of you who know a little bit about cars, if measurments told the whole story, the Mazda MX-5 Miata with it's low power four cylinder engine  wouldn't be one of the most fun to drive car on the market.

 

Personally, I do not find soundstage very important... It's too primitive in comparison with advanced technologies of enhancing the perception of space, like TB Isone or Smyth Realiser. Transparency, at least reasonable level of imaging, control and desirable FR are much more important. You can have enormous soundstage but still, it's only of a very limited value, you are still nowhere near reality.

 

I have been discussing about the rest of your comment before so not going to repeat myself...


Edited by MHOE - 11/21/12 at 5:06am
post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Personally, I do not find soundstage very important... It's too primitive in comparison with advanced technologies of enhancing the perception of space, like TB Isone or Smyth Realiser. Transparency, at least reasonable level of imaging, control and desirable FR are much more important. You can have enormous soundstage but still, it's only of a very limited value, you are still nowhere near reality.

 

I have been discussing about the rest of your comment before so not going to repeat myself...

 

Well obviously... Not to sound offensive, but the LCD-2s has one of the narrowest soundstage of all the headphones in the 500 - 1000 region :D

post #44 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post

 

Well obviously... Not to sound offensive, but the LCD-2s has one of the narrowest soundstage of all the headphones in the 500 - 1000 region :D

 

Do you want me to post my previous opinion once again?

post #45 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHOE View Post

 

Do you want me to post my previous opinion once again?

 

Nope :)

Thank you

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