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Does the lack of concrete, technical knowledge on this forum bother you? Why are people here so...

post #1 of 47
8/17/11 at 8:14pm
Thread Starter 

Does the lack of technical knowledge here bother anybody? My other interests are cars and motorcycles. If you frequent any of the motorsport and car modification forums, most of the people there have significant, hands-on experience fixing cars or bikes. The vast, vast majority (over 90% for sure) understand how an internal combustion engine works. I occasionally visit overclock.net and while the signal to noise ratio there is worse, there are a lot of people there who really know how computers work. Not just "what is RAM," but a deep understanding of hardware. Contrast those other hobby sites with Head-Fi... I'm not certain of this, but I'd wager at least 90% of people here don't know how an amplifier works, much less understand how different circuit designs change the sound, or how to build their own. My question to you is, is this a bad thing, or does it not matter in this hobby?

 

I had a job doing light maintenance on cars for almost 4 years. In that time I saved myself thousands of dollars by understanding and avoiding rip-offs in the automotive industry. I learned how to avoid scams and products that did nothing at all, as well as shops that simply overcharged for their services. Most people who love cars, at some point in their life, learn how to fix them. But in audio it seems that people intentionally avoid learning how components work. I know there are quite a few audio DIY websites, but the number of DIYers compared to the total number of audiophiles is quite small. In other technical hobbies like cars,motorcycles, and computers, most of the hobbyists take pride in learning technical skills about their hobby. In Head-Fi at least, the DIY section is tiny compared to the other discussion forums. So, why don't more of us pursue technical knowledge about amplifiers and sources?

 

I always wonder how much money I could save myself if I had the technical expertise of somebody like Spritzer or Frank Cooter. I'm a smart guy and I could learn these things if I wanted to. What I wonder about are the rest of you - if you don't know how to DIY, why not? My personal answer is I already have no time, with 2 jobs and several hobbies. And why do a few people here not only ignore, but vehemently disagree with those who have actual technical knowledge? See the recent thread about the RSA Dark Star* where KG was ignored and Spritzer's posts were refuted by people who know nothing about amplifiers. I dunno about you guys, but if there is an argument between somebody like Spritzer who designs and builds world-class amplifiers and a person who doesn't know how an amplifier works, I'm gonna believe Spritzer. I just wonder why so many people do the equivalent of plugging their ears and putting their head in the sand when anybody with technical knowledge says something that they don't want to hear. 

 

*I have no agenda against that product. If somebody with as much knowledge as KG or Spritzer gave reasons why it was better than other amps, I would take that advice just as seriously.


Edited by tvrboy - 8/17/11 at 8:19pm
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post #2 of 47
8/17/11 at 9:22pm

It's a completely different hobby... those interested in cars no doubt have to learn how they work in order to fix them, buy a used car, fixed it up, make it better, that is the hobby. Likewise with computers those interested enough to overclock will likely build from scratch which lets face it is a heck of a lot easier than soldering an amp.

 

An interest in audio demands only that of your ears, sure we may all know a good deal when we see one, distinguish a good sounding amp from a bad one but little building knowledge is required. Perhaps if building headphones, amps and DACs had it's benefits the majority of us would do it, as it is there is little to be gained understanding how a diaphragm works.

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post #3 of 47
8/17/11 at 9:38pm

What bothers me isn't that most people aren't experts or people who make attempts to become educated laymen but the fact that most people here dismiss, mock, or ignore those who do have some sort of technical knowledge.

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post #4 of 47
8/17/11 at 10:36pm
It's regrettable that there's quite little technical knowledge here, yet it is unsurprising.

With cars, and to a lesser extent with computers, opening up a car and getting your hands dirty is part if the ends of the hobby, on the other hand, the average driver is simply going to go to a garage. With headphone, the end goal is simply enjoyment of the music, most of the forum is simply in the situation of the average driver.
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post #5 of 47
8/17/11 at 10:58pm

In fairness, it seems like the audiophile community has split into various sub-communities that cater to specific interests.  I'm not sure is there's rules against naming other audio communities, but there's a prominent one that caters directly to the DIY crowd.  When it comes to audio reviews, that group is about as laconic as it gets.  On the other hand, the aggregate knowledge there is really, really impressive, from the electrostat amp building projects to the daily presence of some of the best known hobbyists (including the people OP mentioned).  Over there, the pillars of the community seem to get a lot of general respect which they've earned.

 

I can think of another community that caters towards PCs and Macs as sources, and regulars often tell people who ask about CD players and vinyl that they're on the wrong site.

 

HF is the largest, and regularly gets cited at all the other sites.  The demographics at HF are really diverse, and you've got people who make the best of what they can with a $200-500 setup, while you have others talking about their $5-15k pieces of individual gear.  The only barrier to entry here is enjoying music and headphones, whereas the other sites have the same barrier on top of additional encumbrances (for example, if you don't know what a resistor or capacitor is, the DIY site probably would be as boring as watching paint peel).

 

Anyway, as a long-time lurker, I agree with OP, but I think it's a natural sorting out based on the demographics and interest groups.  There does seem to be a generally dismissive attitude towards technical rationale here, but there are also a lot of insightful posts if I wade through site searches long enough.  Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of the really good people stopped posting as actively around 2008-09, at least based on the searching I've been doing for electrostat equipment.

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post #6 of 47
8/17/11 at 11:12pm

I am an experienced technologist but I am ok with all the buzz from non-nerds. The noise attracts others who have cool products for sale or fun DIY projects. It means more options for everyone.

 

Audiophiles are like poets. I suppose poets hear beauty in the patterns of the words rather than syntax and grammar and audiophiles discover beauty in the sonic variance of various cables .. or something like that. I don't get audiophilia any more than I get poetry but I have to allow that other people can experience something I cannot.

 

I listen to background music for it's calming effect while working. And I like tinkering with amps, speakers, and such.  Hence the interest in head-fi.

 

 

audiophilia1. the state or condition of an audiophile.
2. the state of one who listens to high-fidelity equipment solely for the quality of reproduction.

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post #7 of 47
8/17/11 at 11:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fubar3 View Post

I am an experienced technologist but I am ok with all the buzz from non-nerds. The noise attracts others who have cool products for sale or fun DIY projects. It means more options for everyone.

 

Audiophiles are like poets. I suppose poets hear beauty in the patterns of the words rather than syntax and grammar and audiophiles discover beauty in the sonic variance of various cables .. or something like that. I don't get audiophilia any more than I get poetry but I have to allow that other people can experience something I cannot.

 

I listen to background music for it's calming effect while working. And I like tinkering with amps, speakers, and such.  Hence the interest in head-fi.

 

 

audiophilia1. the state or condition of an audiophile.
2. the state of one who listens to high-fidelity equipment solely for the quality of reproduction.


I get your point, but the comparison to poetry is a poor one. There are many audio "components" where the variances people hear are imaginary. Go on Audio Asylum sometime... those folks can hear the differences between COLORS of cable. I'm not even kidding, there is a thread about that. Different poems have different words. There is an "audible" difference between them evil_smiley.gif


Edited by tvrboy - 8/17/11 at 11:33pm
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post #8 of 47
8/18/11 at 12:45am

I for one find that if you search properly, you will find a wealth of information here. Over time you learn whose opinions to trust more. You also learn to differentiate between facts and opinions thinly veiled as facts. The world of the audiophile is filled with pseudo-science and hyperbole...that's just the way it is unfortunately. I for one, trust my ears and only reach a conclusion about something until I have spent some quality time with it. Some might agree with my thoughts and others will not. That's fine by me.

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post #9 of 47
8/18/11 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post

I for one find that if you search properly, you will find a wealth of information here. Over time you learn whose opinions to trust more. You also learn to differentiate between facts and opinions thinly veiled as facts. The world of the audiophile is filled with pseudo-science and hyperbole...that's just the way it is unfortunately. I for one, trust my ears and only reach a conclusion about something until I have spent some quality time with it. Some might agree with my thoughts and others will not. That's fine by me.



I totally agree and its one of the reasons i was lurking here for the past year or so til only recently. Head-fi is a mountain of knowledge with links to many other places of technological experimentation and wonder. Seems to go hand in hand with having a friendly membership.

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post #10 of 47
8/18/11 at 4:45pm
This isn't technology. This is a fashion show.

A Wal-Mart tag on a shirt means it's worth $10. Stitch a fashionable label on the same shirt and it's worth $300. Anyone who knows a thing or two about fabric would buy the $10 one, but most look at the label and the glossy ads. Or listen to some shill magazine. Hell breaks loose if you point out that they're the same shirt. Same thing goes on here.

There have been some very disappointing products rolled out lately. One device apparently does very little aside from costing money. Ask for more information and the manufacturer hides in the shadows while bringing out the Testimonial Dog and Pony Show. Disgusting.

I partially blame the audio industry for the lack of knowledge. New concepts and designs dried up around 25 years ago. So they've been busy repackaging old stuff as "new" and released a torrent of snakeoil to pad the margins. It used to be that audiophiles built their own stuff (look at the amount of books and kits that were available - even popular magazines published plans) and a big part of the hobby was recording live music.

Today, people quibble over the finish on their speakers and freak out over biasing a tube, let alone solder something. Not only are they afraid, but many stubbornly refuse to learn. They throw up their hands with a "I'm no good at that" without even making an effort.

Then again, if the majority of people here knew what was really going on and could build stuff, there'd just be a smoldering wasteland in several forums. Part of me enjoys the "every wish and dream is real" aspect of audio - I also enjoy reading about quack medicine, chupacabra sightings and have been picking up books on early 20th century mysticism. Not that I believe any of it, I just love the wacky claims, the nuts who push it and the assorted scandals and outfall.

Also, DIY isn't always a route to saving money. Sure, if you get a cheap iron and a DMM. But I've acquired about $3k in tools and will probably spend that much again to get the shop where I want it. That's OK, since I've knocked off oher expensive hobbies (cars, watches, computers, etc.) and will be turning out some nice electronics and woodwork that I can fix myself. I've got close to 30 projects (including old radios) which should keep me busy for a few years.
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post #11 of 47
8/18/11 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

This isn't technology. This is a fashion show.

A Wal-Mart tag on a shirt means it's worth $10. Stitch a fashionable label on the same shirt and it's worth $300. Anyone who knows a thing or two about fabric would buy the $10 one, but most look at the label and the glossy ads. Or listen to some shill magazine. Hell breaks loose if you point out that they're the same shirt. Same thing goes on here.

There have been some very disappointing products rolled out lately. One device apparently does very little aside from costing money. Ask for more information and the manufacturer hides in the shadows while bringing out the Testimonial Dog and Pony Show. Disgusting.

I partially blame the audio industry for the lack of knowledge. New concepts and designs dried up around 25 years ago. So they've been busy repackaging old stuff as "new" and released a torrent of snakeoil to pad the margins. It used to be that audiophiles built their own stuff (look at the amount of books and kits that were available - even popular magazines published plans) and a big part of the hobby was recording live music.

Today, people quibble over the finish on their speakers and freak out over biasing a tube, let alone solder something. Not only are they afraid, but many stubbornly refuse to learn. They throw up their hands with a "I'm no good at that" without even making an effort.

Then again, if the majority of people here knew what was really going on and could build stuff, there'd just be a smoldering wasteland in several forums. Part of me enjoys the "every wish and dream is real" aspect of audio - I also enjoy reading about quack medicine, chupacabra sightings and have been picking up books on early 20th century mysticism. Not that I believe any of it, I just love the wacky claims, the nuts who push it and the assorted scandals and outfall.

Also, DIY isn't always a route to saving money. Sure, if you get a cheap iron and a DMM. But I've acquired about $3k in tools and will probably spend that much again to get the shop where I want it. That's OK, since I've knocked off oher expensive hobbies (cars, watches, computers, etc.) and will be turning out some nice electronics and woodwork that I can fix myself. I've got close to 30 projects (including old radios) which should keep me busy for a few years.


I agree with uncle erik here, coincidentally, I recently became interested in performance computers and signed onto overclockers.com and the info presented by both the members of the forum and my computer itself was very honest and straightforward (the cpu temp displayed in bios, the methods for applying a heatsink etc etc) while audio is very hard to quantify simply though concrete data, hell all the specs read nearly the same (20-2200000, 5-280000), in the end we're more concerned with the comfort, the purdy colors, the appearance in general (cabling....) and the price (more is better..)

 


Edited by buffalowings - 8/18/11 at 4:56pm
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post #12 of 47
8/18/11 at 5:35pm

This is a lot more complex than a car. When transistors first came out, they were supposed to take over the audio world. Didn't happen. Vacuum tubes have characteristics that is more pleasing to hear. Transistors have much better specs. Then CDs arrived, same thing. LPs and turntables have something that again sounds pleasing to hear. Then MP3s came. Just converting from CDs to FLAC, for example, do you lose bits? Converting an analog signal to digital, what is the best way? Streaming a FLAC from your PC through USB to your DAC, can cause jitter, what is the acceptable jitter?

 

I hope you see my point.

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post #13 of 47
8/18/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuwhere View Post

This is a lot more complex than a car. When transistors first came out, they were supposed to take over the audio world. Didn't happen. Vacuum tubes have characteristics that is more pleasing to hear. Transistors have much better specs. Then CDs arrived, same thing. LPs and turntables have something that again sounds pleasing to hear. Then MP3s came. Just converting from CDs to FLAC, for example, do you lose bits? Converting an analog signal to digital, what is the best way? Streaming a FLAC from your PC through USB to your DAC, can cause jitter, what is the acceptable jitter?

 

I hope you see my point.


Yeah. Placebo is a *****.

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post #14 of 47
8/18/11 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post


Yeah. Placebo is a *****.



I didn't mention a $30 interconnect versus a $300 one. Or a Sabre DAC chip versus a Wolfson DAC chip. Or tube rolling. All I mentioned is analog to digital then back to analog signal conversion. There is also the recording part. Then there is also the conversion from an analog electrical signal to sound - speakers, IEMs, dynamic headphones, electrostatic, closed versus open headphones.

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post #15 of 47
8/18/11 at 6:25pm

Coming from someone who's never fixed cars/built audio equipment:

 

Fixing cars require less technical knowledge as compared to building components and making your own audio rig, imo.

 

When fixing cars you have to know is what parts the cars use, where to best get these parts, how to install the part, troubleshoot problems, etc. It's not like you're building a car from scratch; there's nothing too scientific involved in fixing or modifying a car. You don't have to design a totally new component or go deep into what the components are made of. In most cases, there's already a specific way or guide to go about doing things. Over time the fixing/modifying process gets routine. It's basically like putting many metal lego blocks together, yes?

 

Modifying isn't a very demanding task either. You got hand skills, you got knowledge from others who've already done what you're wanting to do, all there's left is to put everything together. Unless you're designing the car, right down to the % composition of metals in the gears and crankshafts and what-nots, you don't really need too much knowledge on engineering. I have mad respect for the guys who build tiny one-seater super cars that go from 0-60 in 3s and have as much braking force as some top end racers, but most DIY work don't go that far.  

 

Building a cmoy isn't as difficult as inventing a new amp. Imo, it's similar to fixing or modifying a car. You can always look around for manuals, blueprints and other relevant materials or ask around if you get stuck changing that op amp. The tough part is when you want to build something from scratch. There's the tiny components to consider, quite a bit of calculation and at the end of the day even if you find the right components, the sound might not please your ears. What's worse is, there may not be any relevant materials, blueprints or guides to teach you where to slot what, which parts to use. So there's a lot of trial and error involved.

 

Hopefully I didn't offend any car diy enthusiasts and yes, I'm one of the people on head-fi who know nuts about EE and how audio components work.  

 

 

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