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Headphone CSD waterfall plots - Page 20

post #286 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Sennheiser HD-25-1 II

HD25-1 II L.txt.jpg HD25-1 II R.txt.jpg

 

Not horrible for what it is.

 

Compared to M-80:

f8031a4f_m80Lsolidplate.txt.jpeg a9ee2c1e_m80Rsolidplate.txt[1].jpeg

 

The HD-25 does have a U-curve. This was obvious during listening. I found the M-80 a better listen despite the midrange bump. (I would rather have a midrange bump with a treble roll-off than an U-curved FR.) Honestly I couldn't say the HD-25 sounded faster. Maybe a little clearer. I just couldn't get over its tonal signature.


Purrin, your tools and analysis are beautiful and are representative of our curves as well vs the HD25 (a great headphone we admire).

 

Trust me, we DO and are tempted to do the exact same analysis and much more as soon as we get new headphones  (we use 8 of each competitors, 3 labs, and 50+ subjective reviewers so we can test durability and variances in their quality control and also check for statistical/calibration/lab sampling errors).  To be honest, today I got new prototypes and many new headphones (including DT1350s) and I threw them in our lab vs subjectively listened first as I should have done.  I do the same with all my source songs in logic, serato, etc immediately so I know how to edit/play them when I dj and produce/remix.  I should always do the opposite, as I should try to not let the curves and lab analysis bias my ears as #1.  BUT...    

 

As many head-fiers and you know, the "fit is the sound".  The fitting plays such an important role on the final sound. The fit+inidividual ear shape+hearing loss is like the "room", the driver is the "speaker" when compared to traditional audio.  They must work together perfectly for the best experience, equally.

 

So, we have tried to now also add to our testing the effect of the physical user's ear canal+fittings+hearing loss with some very special methods, we can discuss how to measure this if you want!  And of course we can always brainstorm new ways to better measure the "fit effect".

 

Look at the headphones boost in the highs and how songs are mastered (I am a producer), it is VERY VERY dangerous to spike 8kHz+ in the headphone itself as every song is different and people have different volume listening levels, genres.  It is best to EQ if you need to or have hearing loss, but don't hurt the kids and younger users, I started V-MODA when I was in my mid 20s w perfect hearing and this is why we never artificially boosted our highs.

 

-v


Edited by valkolton - 10/1/11 at 3:21am
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post #287 of 937

I started V-MODA when I was in my mid 20s w perfect hearing and this is why we never artificially boosted our highs.

 

-v


I propose that every head-fier should put our current audiograms and date in our profiles... we are implementing this at V-MODA for our data, in addition to listing our current  upper respiratory health on a scale of 1-10. 

 

Personally, I cannot hear the phrase "recessed highs", if somebody has hearing loss in the highs they should EQ and not hurt the people that have perfect hearing loss or are younger kids.

 

that's my 2 cents to help the hearing loss epidemic!


Edited by valkolton - 10/1/11 at 3:25am
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post #288 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by valkolton View Post
I started V-MODA when I was in my mid 20s w perfect hearing and this is why we never artificially boosted our highs.

THANK YOU!
 

 

post #289 of 937

Did you use the mk1 pads or the mk2?  Because the response of the mk1 pads on that headphone looked a lot more balanced.

post #290 of 937

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post

It's much better than my first post....

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/94355/hello-everyone biggrin.gif  ... and much better than mine. I was asking for a $50 headphone with lots of bass ph34r.gif

 

this thread is awesome. any change you can add the DT1350 to the list?

post #291 of 937
If purrin would be up for another sampling in a week or two, then I've got a DT1350 & some stats to test.
post #292 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by anetode View Post

If purrin would be up for another sampling in a week or two, then I've got a DT1350 & some stats to test.


Oh he will be.  I'll make sure of that.  wink_face.gif

 

post #293 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMcProgger View Post

 

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/94355/hello-everyone biggrin.gif  ... and much better than mine. I was asking for a $50 headphone with lots of bass ph34r.gif

 

this thread is awesome. any change you can add the DT1350 to the list?

LOL!

 

redface.gif You found my 2nd post.redface.gif My first was me ordering in on a group buy. I had been lurking head-fi for years and a group buy for a porta corda made me join. Little did I know I would be here so long or that it would take me so long to find what I have now. I had been learning mastering on and off for 5 years. I knew nothing back then. tongue.gif
 

 

post #294 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

I'll be sticking with my recent practice of providing my initial listening impressions before the measurements. LFF was with me so he can attest to the accuracy of (or lack of) my predictions. This is fun. OK here it goes: 

 

HE300

Hmm. Wierd. Really midrangy. Some bass. Doesn't seem extended up top. Unbalanced tonally. A midrange bump at 1kHz. Some ringing around 3kHz? Not a bad spot for ringing to occur, but it's still there. Nothing offensive up top. Maybe some very slight ringing at two spots in the treble? This headphone just sounds messed up. Lacks resolution. Not fun to listen to. Taking them off.

 

OK, here's how it looks like:

HE300 l.txt.jpg HE300 r.txt.jpg

 

That's just messed up.


I don't really understand CSD plots that well, but I can speak about the sound.  What you describe doesn't sound exactly like the pair of HE-300 that I have here.  Although some points I can't deny, it almost makes me wonder if there are some variations in the build or something.

 

In my mini-review I did report an upper midrange peak/coloration, and they are fairly forward sounding.  But after listening to the HE-300 for a little while my ears/brain acclimate to the midrange peak.  It reminds me a little bit of (but not "sounds just like") a mid-level Grado with added bass.  At least I'm not hearing a nasally-sounding upper mids peak like I heard with the CD-3000, ATH-W11R, and W5000.  To me this peak is more tolerable.

 

And my HE-300 have very strong bass which doesn't sound like "some bass" (which to me implies not much).  I did report some distortion and doubling in the bass below 40Hz so the bass quality is not the best, but quantity is not lacking.  I heard this same deep bass issue in a pair of modded "open" D7000, and these have about the same bass quantity as those (although the open D7000 would still be superior in every other way).  But on some fast bass like in Shpongle they seemed to keep up with the pace well enough.

 

My 49 yr old ears roll off by 16Khz which is also masked by my chronic tinnitus, and while 12.5Khz tones are strong to my ears I find that 16Khz tones are usually down several dB with a variety of phones; and despite that I can still hear to 16Khz with the HE-300, although at the usual reduced level for me.  Nevertheless, I can't claim to be a good judge of treble extension due to my aging ears, so I'll leave that area to you.

 

After I wrote the above I decided to listen again, just in case.  I'm feeding my Macbook Pro > Amara Mini > DACmini USB into an ALO Amphora for the HE-300, and for comparisons the DACmini is also feeding a balanced SR-71b with balanced LCD-2/Silver Dragon cable and an HD600/APS v3 cable.  I've tried a variety of male and female vocals, jazz and rock tonight.

 

In comparison to the HE-300 my HD600 are more transparent and natural sounding, but the HE-300 are more energetic and fun with a low powered amp.  The LCD-2 with Silver Dragon cable combine the transparent and natural sound of the HD600/APS v3 with the energetic and fun sound of the HE-300, so they come out on top (as do the HE-500 based on my last listen a couple of days ago).  Certainly the HD600 bass quality is better than HE-300, although the quantity is less unless the HD600 are driven by a stout amp like my ZDT (or even my HDP which has good synergy).  But unlike the HD600 that sound fantastic out of the HDP, the HE-300 sound too aggressive with the HDP.  In contrast, switch the HE-300 to the Amphora or Nuforce iDo and they sound much better (also good with DACmini, DACport and uDAC-2).  With my APS v3 cable the HD 600 seem to lose any veil and present good micro-detail, and although I haven't tried a better cable with the HE-300 I don't find them to sound veiled, maybe as an illusion due to their crisp sound signature?  

 

So for a true audiophile dynamic headphone in this price range it's still hard to beat the HD600.  My Stax SR-003, SR-Lambda, SR-Lambda Nova Signature, and SR-5NB gold edition also fit this category and I prefer them over HD600, but they have their own amping requirements.  I admit that the HE-300 isn't a reference phone, but for a fun sounding headphone with minimal amping requirements my particular set of HE-300 seem to be a nice choice for a wide variety of music.  I'd prefer them to wide variety of low to mid-level Grado and Ultrasone headphones which I am very familiar with, although I do prefer my stock Grado HF-2 and re-cabled ATH-A900 to these. 

 

Basically, I don't find the HE-300 to sound "messed up" with a large portion of my music, although some albums do sound worse with them than others and I'm sure they wont appeal to everyone because of their coloration.  For instance I can't listen to the HE-300 with albums like Coldplay "Viva la Vida", Boys like Girls "Love Drunk", Weezer "Hurley" or Bella Sonus "Enamoured".  But albums like Kent Poon "Audiophile Jazz Prologue III", Chesky "Best Audiophile Voices II", Chris Jones "Roadhouses and Automobiles", Jack Johnson "On and On" still sounded pretty good.  I found that my Ryan Adams Live 24/96 recording "2006-10-17 Das Haus - Ludwigshafen, Germany" was particularly well suited to the HE-300, which is a big contrast to the albums that don't work well with them.

 

Then there are some recordings that fall in the middle with HE-300, like Evanescence "The Open Door", Porcupine Tree "In Absentia", or Taylor Swift "Speak Now" - those are not great but still enjoyable.  And it goes on and on where some albums sound good with HE-300, but others are not as well suited to them.  Obviously there are many people out there posting about how much they enjoy the HE-300, so it does fit well with some people and their music.  In the end it comes down to a matter of taste and requirements/expectations for what the phone should be able to do.

 

 

post #295 of 937
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post

 

But after listening to the HE-300 for a little while my ears/brain acclimate to the midrange peak.  It reminds me a little bit of (but not "sounds just like") a mid-level Grado with added bass.  At least I'm not hearing a nasally-sounding upper mids peak like I heard with the CD-3000, ATH-W11R, and W5000.  To me this peak is more tolerable.


So for a true audiophile dynamic headphone in this price range it's still hard to beat the HD600.

 

 


Your brain and ears tend to filter certain things after a short amount of time. However, if you play some well mastered music like "Layla" from Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" album on a can like the Stax 009 and then immediate jump over to the HE-300, you will hear a HUGE difference. This is how I initially noticed the flaws of the HE-300. I hooked my FA-002w and the HE-300 at the same time, same volume level, playing the same music. No contest. I agree that the HE-300 does have good bass but from the low midrange onwards...not so good. That said, given some time, your ears will adjust.

 

I'm also a person who believes the FA-003/FA-002w sound better than the HD600 and I agree that the HD600 sounds better than the HE-300.

 

post #296 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post

I'm also a person who believes the FA-003/FA-002w sound better than the HD600 and I agree that the HD600 sounds better than the HE-300.


Now, when you say better, you tonally or technically?  Because technically I think the HD650 driver are more proficient than the Fischers but tonally I totally understand your case for the Fischers.  When I'm judging phones I'm really not getting hung up on FR but what the drivers are actually able to render.  Once that's sorted I'll worry about whether I can love, live with or fix the FR physically w/ EQ a last resort which I still haven't touched in years as I'm still dialing in my gear.  

 

post #297 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

Now, when you say better, you tonally or technically?  Because technically I think the HD650 driver are more proficient than the Fischers but tonally I totally understand your case for the Fischers.  When I'm judging phones I'm really not getting hung up on FR but what the drivers are actually able to render.  Once that's sorted I'll worry about whether I can love, live with or fix the FR physically w/ EQ a last resort which I still haven't touched in years as I'm still dialing in my gear.  

 


There is no arguing with the technically superior drivers of the HD600/650. Even before Purrin measured them, I could tell their driver matching was excellent every single time I worked on mono material. I feel the Fischers sound much better in tone. I have never tried to mod any Senn can though. Perhaps I should buy some 650's and give it a shot.

 

post #298 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post

There is no arguing with the technically superior drivers of the HD600/650. Even before Purrin measured them, I could tell their driver matching was excellent every single time I worked on mono material. I feel the Fischers sound much better in tone. I have never tried to mod any Senn can though. Perhaps I should buy some 650's and give it a shot.

 


Perhaps, maybe some used or refurb'd ones on the cheap.  I doubt you'd get the same degree of improvement as the T50rp obviously.  Senn had to come up w/ a ring driver so I think there will be an inherent technical wall you'll run into at a lower level than what the T50rp driver is capable of.  

post #299 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

Perhaps, maybe some used or refurb'd ones on the cheap.  I doubt you'd get the same degree of improvement as the T50rp obviously.  Senn had to come up w/ a ring driver so I think there will be an inherent technical wall you'll run into at a lower level than what the T50rp driver is capable of.  



See...now you are just tempting me and challenging me....I'll avoid the temptation...wink_face.gif

 

Well...maybe if I am bored one of these days.....

post #300 of 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post

See...now you are just tempting me and challenging me....

 

Actually, I know it's impossible.  Just forget I brought it up.  You have no chance in hell.  Just sayin'.
 

 

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