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post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post




Sigh. I have nothing to say. It's unbecoming for me to argue. There's holes so wide in your statement not to mention the way you approach thing- highly predictable . But that being said it's part of my job to notice such things. So in that sense, thanks. But from now on please refrain from talking to me. You have a habit of not paying attention to detail and pointedly ignoring most of what I said and only picking out specific things to your benefit.

Perhaps that is a flaw of mine. For what is worth my original comment wasn't intended to get a rise out of you. If I had known quoting you would result in such a heated discussion of the definition of the word 'bias' I wouldn't have said anything to begin with. Sometimes I forget the internet is serious business. 
 

 

post #47 of 59

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

You quite obviously have trouble understanding that there's a difference between people who can afford expensive audio equipment simply because they can with people who have worked their whole lives to achieve that perfect sound signature. How do you know something suits you until you've tried everything else, or at least a vast majority? 

 

No, I really don't, but if you want to get stroppy then I'll put my argument the way I originally typed it out before I reconsidered, because I was well aware that some people can't take constructive criticism (not that it's worked, clearly). It's about whether you're process oriented or goal oriented. Those people who enjoy trying everything out, working their way up the scale, etc. and enjoy doing so (which is the crucial point) are process oriented. Those people who would rather just get the best performance for their price point, whatever that happens to be, are goal oriented.

 

If you'd bothered to actually try to understand my point, instead of getting all offended about it, you might have realised that I was advocating an approach whereby the OP would ultimately end up spending less money on audio equipment, precisely because he wouldn't end up running through a dozen sets of cans and half a dozen amps before settling on something - what's that going to end up costing in the end? Or are you saying that somebody who only cares about the end result isn't going to regret spending a significant amount more money, just to end up with the same (or very similar) system at the end?

 

To say that you don't know whether something suits you until you've tried everything else is frankly...misconceived (not my first choice of adjective). To be frank, that sounds like the kind of argument that somebody with a lot of disposable income makes.

 

There's a reason people read reviews of gear and come to places like this to ask advice from experts before making a purchase. Because they don't have the time and money to do it your way.

 

Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

And you're analogy is fundamentally flawed. More expensive does not equal better. And it's only a few individuals who said he shouldn't buy high-end equipment. We're not saying anything of the compulsory sort. It's just advice. And plenty people here recommending lcd2s. Are you saying those aren't high end?  Snobbery?

 

I never said that it did - however the OP clearly identified that he was in the market for high-end equipment. I didn't recommend a single thing, other than to point out that some people (you) were specifically advocating a course of action which might work well for them, but isn't for everybody. Yes, intellectual snobbery in this case - the attitude that if you haven't amassed an exhaustive knowledge of headphone equipment by "trying everything else" that you're doing it 'wrong'.

 

Quite apart from that, are you really going to try to make the argument that cost does not roughly correspond to quality, presuming the buyer has done his due diligence in terms of background research (like, for example, going to a specialist forum and asking advice from the experts there)?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

Additionally, in terms of technical proficiency and standards of measurement where on earth did you get that 5 percent ratio? Speaking of which, that was a poorly played car analogy. I dare to presume you actually own a car of that caliber? Or that you have actually witnessed that meager 5 percent increase of years of experience. For the audiophile it's not as much as the overall result of the sound but the enjoyment of our journey and our own personal satisfaction. We try to pass this on to future headfi-ers.


Are you trying to make my point for me? Fixating on minutiae  like a percentage I used for illustrative purposes is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. To put it in nice, simple terms - not everyone wants to be an 'audiophile'. Some people just come here looking for advice on the best bang for their buck - or in the OP's case, a lot of bucks.

 

For those people, they're just trying to get the benefit of those people who have "tried everything else", so that they don't have to.

 

(Let's leave aside you apparently deciding what the definition of an 'audiophile' is.)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

If everyone was as financially blessed as the OP then why not recommend everyone to buy Sennheiser Orpheus. Who is going to review the lower-end cans/iems. It's called respecting the less privileged. Do well to follow that before bringing up analogies of exotic cars. Speaking of which you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. More expensive cars are not performance wise better than say a tuned 90,000 gtr v spec. Why do people buy those cars then? It's because they can for the status symbol. Which I'm sure many people on this forum do to. Just to tote and say I own hd800s or what-not. The other half assume the more expensive rarer cars are much better in performance and they enjoy it. But how can they ever know their own preference through just one exotic car? Are they expected to read reviews online and believe it instantly, shelling out half a million without even test-driving the car? I only say this because I currently have a rolls-royce phantom and a lamborghini gallardo in my garage. Did my family buy them for the performance? No. They bought it for the status. And people who are looking to buy a high-performance model have most likely previously have had experience with many cars. 

 


I do respect the less privileged, I happen to be one of them (particularly compared to the Rolls Royce Phantom crowd). Just because my dad could afford Sovereigns, doesn't mean that I'm not using a headphone setup that is worth roughly 10 times what my car is worth. In my family, you make your own money. But how about respecting the specific needs and wants of somebody whose question you are purporting to answer, instead of using a fairly standard response of "try everything out there."

 

I used a car analogy because it something that most people can relate to - and only extremely well-off people like yourself are going to be picking holes in it from a "my Lamborghini" standpoint. I was originally going to use swords, which is a subject on which I can speak with a significant amount of direct knowledge. But given that the vast majority of people (including knife enthusiasts) wouldn't know what I was talking about when going into details of carbon and 'impurity' quotients, heat treatment, harmonic resonance, etc. I chose something that people could relate to. For a similar reason, I kept my car analogy to well-known brands, instead of talking about the Nissan GTR and it's Nürburgring time (still a $170k car, though)  (Not that I don't know a few people who have driven both tuned and high-performance production cars who would disagree with you, but I'm not going to get into that)

 

The point being that it is a simple fact that some things are objectively better than others (and yes, usually more expensive). Would I have been more than happy for somebody to point me in the direction of my current semi-custom ATrim Oakshott Type XIII (sword) when I first started out, instead of wasting time and money on cheaper, lower-quality equipment? Hell yes. Do I regret the money spent on those "trying them out" swords? Yes again - which has nothing to do with my enthusiasm for swords, which I am more than capable of boring somebody to death talking about. But at the end of the day I, like others, just want the best quality in a certain price range, and darn the rest. (really, it edited that?)

 

That's the point.

 

 

...and I'm done. I have work to do

 

P.S. As far as "incensing people into an argument" goes, you're the one that got your back up (and, incidentally, who decided to get all condescending about it). And don't call me "sir", I work for a living.evil_smiley.gif

 

Well you got me - since I'm not American, my spell checker has a tendency to automatically convert 'or' to 'our' in words where it's not sure. I fail to see how that's relevant, though, unless you want to get into an argument about things like your lack of capitalisation of proper nouns and other spelling and grammatical errors (grammar nazi-ing me? Really)? (Yes, I'm aware of the irony here, that I missspelled 'argument' in the preceding sentence.)


Edited by Psychochink - 8/1/11 at 12:22am
post #48 of 59

Alright, I'm going to be the "bigger man" here (Pardon the well-used metaphor) and end it before it gets personal.

 

Just a couple fast points.

 

If I made the same mistake of saying my family owns expensive cars then did you not pointedly state in the beginning ( in the same way) about your father's extremely expensive audio setup; Most people have no idea what you're talking about.

 

If you're so concerned about the greater picture and appealing to the general crowd there's no need to talk about harmonic resonances and semi-customed Oakshott Type XIIIs. Believe it or not I actually have experience on the subject of swords. In fact my great grandfather was one of the bearers of true Shui-gang. Water-steel or Damascus steel as it is known in the western world.

 

But you don't see me bringing said things into my argument. I learned long time ago length and complexity is not the way to win the hearts of man. You'll be sorely disappointed. And as someone who works in intelligence it would do wise in the future for you to keep your opinions to yourself.

 

Also, I would like to tell you quite bluntly that I am neither rich myself nor have I been hand-fed my successes. Many people can vouch for me. 

 

Next time utilize things you are more familiar with before using it as an analogy :) Btw the GTR is not 170k. And your friends would disagree with me on what basis? 

 

So your point is that it wouldn't hurt to give the OP some headphone suggestions. Then if you knew that why did you decide it was necessary to post something completely irrelevant and respond to my post instead of giving him suggestions as your suppositions dictated. Don't you see that as less of a contribution and more of an instigation. Speaking of which you are just derailing the thread farther. No offense, my grammar is infinitely better than yours in English at least. At least most of my sentences are properly phrased with appropriate diction. I would think so. But it doesn't mean I occasionally don't throw in a dangling modifier or whatnot. You mentioning my grammar means you're looking for any means possible to "demean" me. I don't appreciate it. Especially for someone who is a liberal arts major with 2 works out.

And I can you "sir" all I want. Until you served your country learn to respect those who put themselves in harms way. I'm not asking you address me as sir. But is there something wrong with me calling you sir? 

 

 

Head-fi originally started as a haven for people who cared about that experience and process. But newer generations of people have seen fit to completely drive all the old-guards out. And it is with this bitterness I myself entered upon back in the middle of 2008. So don't think it's too harsh. If people like me do indeed seek to drive you insane =], then it's only out of obligation to what we truly believe in. Face it, much of head-fi today is solely based on consumer needs instead of what most of us consider as "audiophiles". So I will kindly take myself and leave. At least I will be much happier talking with my fellow audiophiles than getting into an argument with some newcomer whose name is "Psycho-chink", 

 

 

 


Edited by Sil3nce - 8/1/11 at 12:31am
post #49 of 59

You can't be the bigger man when you're the one who first got personal, but if that's how you want to think of it, I have no particular objections.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

If I made the same mistake of saying my family owns expensive cars then did you not pointedly state in the beginning exactly in the same way- Your father's extremely expensive audio setup; Most people have no idea what you're talking about.

 

If you're so concerned about the greater picture and appealing to the general crowd there's no need to talk about harmonic resonances and semi-customed Oakshott Type XIIIs. Believe it or not I actually have experience on the subject of swords. In fact my great grandfather was one of the bearers of true Shui-gang. Water-steel or Damascus steel as it is known in the western world.

 

But you don't see me bringing said things into my argument. I learned long time ago length and complexity is not the way to win the hearts of man. You'll be sorely disappointed. So that being said, I would like to tell you quite bluntly that I am neither rich myself nor have I been hand-fed my successes. 

 


So assuming a forum full of self-proclaimed 'audiophiles' might have heard of Duntech was out of line? The point in making that comparison was that you can be an audiophile (which I consider myself), without doing it the way that you are advocating.

 

The point on swords was to illustrate why I used a car analogy (which you spent a good chunk of text attacking me for) instead of something on which I was a legitimate 'expert' (like swords).

 

Fair enough, I apologise for the assumption, but attacking my car analogy on the basis that, "I currently have a Rolls Royce Phantom and Lamborghini Gallardo in my garage" is going to give that impression.

 

Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

Next time utilize things you are more familiar with before using it as an analogy :) The GTR is not 170k. And your friends would disagree with me on what basis? 

 

So your point is that it wouldn't hurt to give the OP some headphone suggestions. Then if you knew that why did you decide it was necessary to post something completely irrelevant and respond to my post instead of giving him suggestions as your suppositions dictated. Don't you see that as less of a contribution and more of an instigation. Speaking of which you are just derailing the thread farther. 

 


It is in my country. wink_face.gif Not to put words in their mouths (since I am not an expert) but I think it'd go something along the lines of the GTR being great on the track, but of significantly less use in a real world scenario, where you can have close to equal performance without sacrificing practicality (whatever that means when talking about supercars). I know the R8 is a favourite.

 

Firstly, I was responding to 3-4 posts by different people, only one of which was you. I didn't give suggestions because I try not to talk about things that I don't have sufficient knowledge about (in my opinion) to give a fully informed opinion. Since I don't consider myself an expert...

 

I'm derailing? You just had a full page or so argument with somebody about whether or not you were biased.

 

Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

Head-fi originally started as a haven for people who cared about that experience and process. But newer generations of people have seen fit to completely drive all the old-guards out. And it is with this bitterness I myself entered upon back in the middle of 2008. So don't think it's too harsh. If people like me do indeed seek to drive you insane =], then it's only out of obligation to what we truly believe in. Face it, much of head-fi today is solely based on consumer needs instead of what most of us consider as "audiophiles". So I will kindly take myself and leave. At least I will be much happier talking with my fellow audiophiles than getting into an argument with some newcomer whose name is "Psycho-chink", 

 

 

While I can sympathise, my objection was to specific tendencies in this thread, rather than an ephemerous situation about what Head-Fi 'should' be.

 

You should also be careful about making assumptions. I'd wager my username holds a lot more personal significance than your's does. I've taken what was originally designed as an insulting racial slur to put me down and made it my own. It's what my oldest friends have the right to call me to my face. Can you say that Sil3nce was chosen for any other reason than because you liked the sound of it?


Edited by Psychochink - 8/1/11 at 5:10pm
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norway View Post

Hello

 

Firstly, thanks for a great community with lots of helpful people. I've been lurking around here for quite some time, but when I research one question ten new pops up. What I have gotten from all my research is that you need to know what you want, and you have to match every component to get what you desire. So basically what I'm saying is that after trying to figure everything out in this jungle of possibilities I find myself lost, and are in need for some direction.

 

Here are some of my prefrences and requirements:

 

1) Money is not an option for me, but I wouldn't want to pay twice as much for a setup which is only marginally better. ie I'm not spending $10k here unless I really need to.

 

2) Source will be a PC with all my ripped flac CDs. I have Asus Xense Essence ST installed, and can use the coaxial output, USB or even change the soundcard to supply an external source.

 

3) I mainly listen techno, trance, electronica and drum & bass. My optimal headphone system would have deep bass, punch and control in the midtones and be soft in the upper frequencies, but not too soft (I do like details).

 

 

A couple of days ago I demoed a pair of JBL K2 ($30,000) powered by a pair of Mcintosh mc1 2kw (~$25,000 each), sourced by a squeeze box and a DAC. If anyone has heard these, they have the qualities I'm after (in a pair of headphones, haha). They do however lack a lot in the lower spectrum, but that can be fixed by a sub or two.

 

So what do you guys think would be a great combo for me, what should I look into?


you are not going to get it.

that's the difference between speakers and headphones, if like you said, money is not an option( issue? ) go for that set. 

 

post #51 of 59

blackhat-Why-Bunny_Cry.jpg

post #52 of 59


 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

blackhat-Why-Bunny_Cry.jpg



OMFG THAT IS SO **** CUTE. 

post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norway View Post


Not rich, but I make a pretty decent living. :)

 

However, just so people here don't think I'm some rich brat coming in here buying expensive **** like I don't care. I do care. When I've found what I'm looking for the bargain hunt begins. I also like buying second hand, because that makes the losses smaller if I find something i like better and elect to sell later.

 

I just don't see the point in going for the cheaper phones and work my way up the ladder if I don't need to.

 

I'm not into all the specs and details, this is not an obsession to feed my OCD so to speak :) If I like the sound, that is good enough for me. I've heard some of the beyerdynamic phones and they sound pretty good, so I can't wait to hear the T1. The Grado PS 1000 didn't impress me when I auditioned it on Friday, but they had never been used before and the amp they connected it to might have been a bad match.



i think spending 10,000 on a headphone system without moving up is OCD  beerchug.gif

 

wes -->  stax sr-009

 

http://www.wooaudio.com/products/

post #54 of 59

I think it's presumptuous to assume everyone here is a collector. Wanting the "best" at a given budget is probably one of the very few things many of us here have in common. If I could restart my journey I'd have no qualms in totally bypassing the low/mid tiers and going straight for the LCD-2 and components to match. That's easy to say though after the fact, so I'll echo the recommendation to make an effort to hear these cans before purchase, if you're fortunate enough to have meets in your area.

post #55 of 59

In response to your additions: Ah, and now we apparently start in on the threats and points in unrelated areas, instead of in any way refuting the substance of my argument (which you continue to miss). Again, you're the one here who's getting all bent out of shape and resorting to throwing points of one-upmanship around.

 

- Did I take the (easy) cheap shot at you around your water/Damascus steel comment and your supposed knowledge of swords? No, because despite it being a continuing headache for those of us who are sword enthusiasts (in terms of a quality argument, think of it as somebody claiming that a high-end headphone run directly out of an iPod is getting the best sound quality - not a perfect analogy, but it works), it's irrelevant to the main point.

 

- I'm not the one here who's looking for any possible means to demean, or would you really care to go back over the point/counterpoint to look at that? Should I point out that you were the one to first bring up a minor spelling error I made, not the other way around? In case you didn't get the point because you were too busy frothing at the mouth, it was that worrying about that sort of thing on an internet forum is ridiculous. However since you want to vaunt your superiority (again) I'll simply say congratulations on being published. As it happens, I do write a lot for a living and have had my work published in National media (but again, who cares).

 

- As far as the "sir" thing goes, for a start learn how to interpret 'tone' (I understand the emoticon at the end of that sentence is the widely accepted internet convention to indicate a comment made light-heartedly). While I am not a current member of the armed forces, I have indeed had that phrase screamed in my face and been made to do push-ups as a result. However, what I actually took umbrage to in the way you used it, was that it was done in a manner that basically indicated a tone of superiority, and I don't appreciate being talked down to.

 

- Finally, leaving aside the implied threat in your comment and the maturity that implies, I would suggest that you calm down and do not use your position in intelligence to pursue any kind of personal vendetta - in particular not anything that might involve in any way penetrating my computer. Given my job and governments being what they are, I doubt that it would be taken in good humour, and there is no need to cause an international incident over a meangingless argument (as curious as I am about the level of...er...excrementstorm a member of a foreign intelligence agency trying to poke around in my work computer would cause). I would feel genuinely bad if anyone were to get fired over something like that (which would be the usual face-saving measure). Just do a simple IP trace if you want to know why I've said that.

 

Bunny is indeed crying.

 

To the OP beyersmile.png: I also cannot recommend highly enough physically going in to audition gear (take your own music with you). You may find that something that sounds good on paper isn't exactly what you're looking for.


Edited by Psychochink - 8/1/11 at 5:17pm
post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychochink View Post

In response to your additions: Ah, and now we apparently start in on the threats and points in unrelated areas, instead of in any way refuting the substance of my argument (which you continue to miss). Again, you're the one here who's getting all bent out of shape and resorting to throwing points of one-upmanship around.

 

- Did I take the (easy) cheap shot at you around your water/Damascus steel comment and your supposed knowledge of swords? No, because despite it being a continuing headache for those of us who are sword enthusiasts (in terms of a quality argument, think of it as somebody claiming that a high-end headphone run directly out of an iPod is getting the best sound quality - not a perfect analogy, but it works), it's irrelevant to the main point.

 

- I'm not the one here who's looking for any possible means to demean, or would you really care to go back over the point/counterpoint to look at that? Should I point out that you were the one to first bring up a minor spelling error I made, not the other way around? In case you didn't get the point because you were too busy frothing at the mouth, it was that worrying about that sort of thing on an internet forum is ridiculous. However since you want to vaunt your superiority (again) I'll simply say congratulations on being published. As it happens, I do write a lot for a living and have had my work published in National media (but again, who cares).

 

- As far as the "sir" thing goes, for a start learn how to interpret 'tone' (I understand the emoticon at the end of that sentence is the widely accepted internet convention to indicate a comment made light-heartedly). While I am not a current member of the armed forces, I have indeed had that phrase screamed in my face and been made to do push-ups as a result. However, what I actually took umbrage to in the way you used it, was that it was done in a manner that basically indicated a tone of superiority, and I don't appreciate being talked down to.

 

- Finally, leaving aside the implied threat in your comment and the maturity that implies, I would suggest that you calm down and do not use your position in intelligence to pursue any kind of personal vendetta - in particular not anything that might involve in any way penetrating my computer. Given my job and governments being what they are, I doubt that it would be taken in good humour, and there is no need to cause an international incident over a meangingless argument (as curious as I am about the level of...er...excrementstorm a member of a foreign intelligence agency trying to poke around in my work computer would cause). I would feel genuinely bad if anyone were to get fired over something like that (which would be the usual face-saving measure). Just do a simple IP trace if you want to know why I've said that.

 

Bunny is indeed crying.

 

To the OP beyersmile.png: I also cannot recommend highly enough physically going in to audition gear (take your own music with you). You may find that something that sounds good on paper isn't exactly what you're looking for.




@Psychochink. You are seriously seriously a troll. I have no interest in this thread whatsoever. But can you try at least to be slightly more accommodating when someone is trying to apologize to you?

Furthermore, I did not add anything. "In response to your additions" What additions?

What is this response to anyways? Look at my post. edited 12:31 am. And right afterwards you replied at 1:01 am. So why do you have to provoke me further more? today at 5:13 pm... Your response to _?

 

Quit throwing in snides like "Bunny is indeed crying".

Can you seriously stop raging? Maybe you should leave this forum. People like you who only argue with the small amount of posts they have are definitely not beneficial to this community, That being said, my attempts to reconcile with you and apologize are met with complete animosity and an ad hominem attack on my virtues and "principles". Which is intrinsically hilarious, seeing how my "argument" and yours are no different. I still don't understand how I've offended you to the point where you have to cyber-slug-it-out-with-me. And please, please, please, please stop insulting yourself by illustrating your own flaws of logic by repeating most of my points. I don't want to know how many times you've utilized fundamental attribution errors, self-serving bias, attentional manipulation, irrational escalation, and worse of all you reject that people make mistakes through a very arrogant semmelweis reflex persona. What can't you understand? Just leave me alone and stop trying to issue essay-long works of "praise".

 

PS: I haven't threatened you at all.

 

Tell you what, read this and don't respond. That'll solve the problem. Otherwise you'll just be contradicting yourself. Saying you don't care for me but spending all that time responding to my opinions.

 

@Everyone else this thread has been derailed enough. Let me explain: Even an attempt to not respond to his provocations earned me paragraphs. I kept it simple. Asked him to resolve things via private message. Rebuffed. Then asked him to resolve things like the man he claimed to be. A simple phone call which he could have made with multiple secure connections as someone in his position.

 

Picture 2.png

 

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Edited by Sil3nce - 8/2/11 at 1:05am
post #57 of 59

thats quite a bit of talking and typing.  

 

but i think you did troll that response silence...lets be real

 

 

 

 It's about whether you're process oriented or goal oriented.

 


great observation, i agree.  i am totally a a process oriented person, i find it very useful to be able to reference different phones i have heard when describing sound.

 

 

process oriented = seller

 

goal oriented  = buyer   

 

both need each other, circular relationship.  

 

 


the problem lies in the fact that their isn't a one size fits all headphone.  generally prices go up for better headphones, but all the different $1000 dollar headphones sound completely different (fwih and wih).    And it is really hard to recommend a headphone to someone that hasn't heard any of them because sound is completely subjective, and by extension why we all like different kinds of music.  

 

so if someone says "hey you need to try out some headphones before you just buy "the best one",  you don't have to follow that advice, but that person is trying to help, not be snobby.

 

some people are content to buy a 1000 dollar headphone and be done with it,  others buy that headphone and wonder if there is something different. 

 

 

 

why do so many people on this site not like the ultrasone edition 10s?    They cost $2000     should i recommend them to the OP?

 

also, if i had a chance to have to bypass all the headphones i listened to , i wouldn't.  

 

it is time consuming to buy headphones and listen to them, fully understood.  

 

 

 

I just bought LCDs, and i am looking at buying a grado sr60 for 80 bucks.   I am wondering about the grado sound, so it isn't necessarily i one way process.

 

 


Edited by n-phect - 8/2/11 at 4:16am
post #58 of 59

"Cost no object?"

 

 

1.  Lavry DA11 DAC   LINK

2. Gilmore DIY T2 amp  LINK

3. Stax SR-009  LINK

 

 

post #59 of 59

I'm closing this thread (at least tentatively), and will review it to see if it can be pruned and saved.

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