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Little Dot Tube Amps: Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide - Page 364

post #5446 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordy View Post
 

Hi Artsi,

 

I assume this is your own amp design - which tubes are you using?

Russian 1x 6N9S, 2x 6N8S, 2x 6N13S and one sylvania 6BY5GA. After photo 6N8S's have changed to older '65 model. It is stereo amplifier with headphone out too. First tube is for signal amplify only and second works as phase splitter too, so powertubes do things in push-pull.

 

With this amp i can use pretty freely my 6SL7, 6SN7, 6BL7, 6BX7 and 6AS7 tubes.

 

And it really is my own design, did not find quickly any similar schematics. Of course someone could have made same kind, since there have been ~60years time to do amplifier like this.


Edited by Artsi - 3/17/14 at 1:27pm
post #5447 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post
 

 

I have yet to hear a Sylvania 6SN7 I don't like, so I am not at all surprised they sound brilliant! :)

 

And as my LD 1+ is an op amp hybrid, I am not able to try 6SN7s as output tubes, so I am a bit envious... :(  I am thinking I should get another amp so I can roll output tubes....   But for now, new headphones are a higher priority. :)

 

gibosi : hope you caught my post re the Psvanes...have some reflections after on what I think may be a couple of rather controversial/interesting? topics...but first, to perhaps shed a little more light on the 6SN7 as power tube quest, I'm glad you like the Sylvanias - I've a pair of VT231 on the way, which I believe are not far off the (real) "Bad Boys"? So I can't wait to see how they compare to the Psvane CV181-T MKII...

 

And now for something that hopefully might be of interest also to anyone else who may be following this...

 

FOLKS...After just 4hours (of the optimum 100!), these Psvanes are obviously going to easily surpass the 6N30P-DRs - which is generating some VERY strong feelings in me at the moment...over and above the euphoria!

 

To tell the truth, for some time now I have been having serious doubts about -  (what I am now fairly convinced to be true) - the myth surrounding those Russian "Supertubes" (at SUPER prices).

The first hint there may be something in it came from a forum post where someone (who seemed to know what he was talking about) actually rated the performance of the 'humble' 6H30Pi OVER the DR. At the time I thought it was down purely to personal preference...but now that I am hearing what these Chinese tubes are doing (admittedly not the cheapos), my suspicions are definitely looking more founded in fact ( to me anyway). I am quite sure the Sylvania VT231s will prove it beyond doubt...but we will see!...

 

I am going to be generous in my disappointment, and put this down to SOLELY because of traditional partnering with less-than-ideal drivers, thereby making the DR appear to be a "supertube", when in fact that was not really the case...

Which brings me to the second 'myth' that I feel needs busting - ie that (in our LDs, at least), the power tubes do not have a great bearing on the final result...these Psvanes are definitely disproving that one - already!!

 

So, folks, I am convinced that the Meisters in this thread, through the relentless trial and error of tubes that were never envisaged at its outset, have hit upon some EXTREMELY interesting and RELEVANT pointers that go beyond the mere 'improvement' of what our units can achieve. And I honestly believe that although we have found drivers that can transform the sound we enjoy, the biggest advance will in fact lie in this area of power tubes...even if only to save just 1 person from being 'robbed' by the "Supertube" myth...I welcome any (informed) challenge to my rant...and I am quite sure my suspicions will be upheld by others who tread this route to alternative power tubes.

 

Rant over...back to seeing how the burn-in is going...

 

Cheers, and HAPPY ROLLING everyone.

post #5448 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnos1 View Post
 

 

gibosi : hope you caught my post re the Psvanes...have some reflections after on what I think may be a couple of rather controversial/interesting? topics...but first, to perhaps shed a little more light on the 6SN7 as power tube quest, I'm glad you like the Sylvanias - I've a pair of VT231 on the way, which I believe are not far off the (real) "Bad Boys"? So I can't wait to see how they compare to the Psvane CV181-T MKII...

 

And now for something that hopefully might be of interest also to anyone else who may be following this...

 

FOLKS...After just 4hours (of the optimum 100!), these Psvanes are obviously going to easily surpass the 6N30P-DRs - which is generating some VERY strong feelings in me at the moment...over and above the euphoria!

 

To tell the truth, for some time now I have been having serious doubts about -  (what I am now fairly convinced to be true) - the myth surrounding those Russian "Supertubes" (at SUPER prices).

The first hint there may be something in it came from a forum post where someone (who seemed to know what he was talking about) actually rated the performance of the 'humble' 6H30Pi OVER the DR. At the time I thought it was down purely to personal preference...but now that I am hearing what these Chinese tubes are doing (admittedly not the cheapos), my suspicions are definitely looking more founded in fact ( to me anyway). I am quite sure the Sylvania VT231s will prove it beyond doubt...but we will see!...

 

I am going to be generous in my disappointment, and put this down to SOLELY because of traditional partnering with less-than-ideal drivers, thereby making the DR appear to be a "supertube", when in fact that was not really the case...

Which brings me to the second 'myth' that I feel needs busting - ie that (in our LDs, at least), the power tubes do not have a great bearing on the final result...these Psvanes are definitely disproving that one - already!!

 

So, folks, I am convinced that the Meisters in this thread, through the relentless trial and error of tubes that were never envisaged at its outset, have hit upon some EXTREMELY interesting and RELEVANT pointers that go beyond the mere 'improvement' of what our units can achieve. And I honestly believe that although we have found drivers that can transform the sound we enjoy, the biggest advance will in fact lie in this area of power tubes...even if only to save just 1 person from being 'robbed' by the "Supertube" myth...I welcome any (informed) challenge to my rant...and I am quite sure my suspicions will be upheld by others who tread this route to alternative power tubes.

 

Rant over...back to seeing how the burn-in is going...

 

Cheers, and HAPPY ROLLING everyone.

 

I'm glad i never splurged on them, because these 6SN7GTB's that are only about $25 (+35 for the adapters) each are very pleasing as power tubes.

 

I hope we can find an even better and ideally, even cheaper, alternatives to the super tubes and their ridiculous pricing.

post #5449 of 10501
I have to say that I also think that the 6sn7 is the superior tube.
In my setup its simply a huge step up from the 6n30s...
Sound wise I experienced more space and ambiance (soundstage) , better control and dynamics and a definitly cleaner top end with better extension with the C3gs.
And I think, as you are able to buy those pre made adapters, go for it!
Unfortunatly the seller did not ship to germany, where I live, so I had to build my own adapters...

Btw, I did not forget to write the tutorial, I am just very busy these days, sorry frown.gif
post #5450 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by mab1376 View Post
 

 

I'm glad i never splurged on them, because these 6SN7GTB's that are only about $25 (+35 for the adapters) each are very pleasing as power tubes.

 

I hope we can find an even better and ideally, even cheaper, alternatives to the super tubes and their ridiculous pricing.

 

I'm glad too, mab...as I mentioned, if we can at least save someone from being fleeced, so much the better!

As for even better/cheaper - where on Earth do we go from here?! Looks like the only real contenders are, unfortunately, a no-go for our LDs - up to MKIV at least...but who knows?!...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectoR13 View Post

I have to say that I also think that the 6sn7 is the superior tube.
In my setup its simply a huge step up from the 6n30s...
Sound wise I experienced more space and ambiance (soundstage) , better control and dynamics and a definitly cleaner top end with better extension with the C3gs.
And I think, as you are able to buy those pre made adapters, go for it!
Unfortunatly the seller did not ship to germany, where I live, so I had to build my own adapters...

Btw, I did not forget to write the tutorial, I am just very busy these days, sorry frown.gif

 

Glad you have also found the 6SN7 a good power tube, CR13...

 

By the way, re your previous post, may I say DOUBLY well done given your situation - and I shall let you off for not having used real silver wire...perhaps in the future, when you have made your fortune?!!

 

Cheers.

post #5451 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnos1 View Post
 

FOLKS...After just 4hours (of the optimum 100!), these Psvanes are obviously going to easily surpass the 6N30P-DRs - which is generating some VERY strong feelings in me at the moment...over and above the euphoria!

 

I am not entirely surprised. To my way of thinking, the primary selling point of the 6N30P-DR is its linearity and neutrality. And I admit that for quite some time, I felt that output tubes/op amps should be as neutral as possible in order to reveal the true sonic signature of the drivers. However, in the process of rolling op amps in my LD1+, I discovered that neutral and linear often just doesn't sound very good. These very neutral chips had poor synergy with my driver tubes. The combination simply wasn't "musical." My current opamp, the MUSES02, is not all that neutral or linear, but it has a wonderful synergy with my driver tubes, and offers a very musical presentation.

 

Similarly, the E80CC is tops in terms of linearity and neutrality. However, as a driver in my system, it too lacks "musicality". While I still consider it to be a very good tube, it doesn't get much playing time in my system. I primarily use it as a standard to evaluate new tubes. Comparing them to the E80CC helps me to determine how their frequency response deviates from neutral. But in the end, 6SN7s and ECC40s are getting the vast majority of the playing time.

 

As your C3gs are also very linear, I suspect that combining them with the very neutral 6N30P-DRs is simply not a good match. No synergy. Whereas, the less linear, but bassy and warm Psvanes have great synergy with your C3gs. And I am looking forward to reading your observations regarding the 1940's Sylvania VT231 in your system.

post #5452 of 10501

Received a pair of Raytheon 6SN7GTB made in Japan. As Mordy is very impressed with his Japan-made Ratheon 8CG7, I thought these just might have a similar sound. I do not know what year these were manufactured (U-16?), but with O-getters, they could well be early 1960's.

 

post #5453 of 10501

Hi Gibosi,

 

Looking forward to hear how the Japanese Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes sound. As an alternative to the Japanese Raytheon 8FQ7/8CG7 I can also recommend 8FQ7/8CG7 Sylvania tubes - seems the Japanese Raytheon tubes are hard to find; the Sylvanias should be more easily available. The main difference is that the Sylvanias have a little less bass punch; otherwise they sound similar.

 

As mentioned before, I am waiting for to try the 6SN7 tubes as power tubes once I get the adapters needed. I agree with the posts above that some tubes have been hyped up by marketing. However, in our comparison tests the DR tubes came out on top. (That was before the 6SN7 era.)

 

Another area that deserves more exploration is synergy. Not that I understand why, but certain tube combinations sound better. At one time I tried to speed up the listening tests by having two different tubes as drivers for the right and left channels and A/B the sound by turning the balance control all the way right or left. Even though the two channels in the LD are completely independent, it did not work. Somehow there was some kind of effect that one channel affected the other, and the only way to properly evaluate a tube was to have two of the same playing.

 

From the little window shopping I did looking at very high end systems I did notice that some of them use the 6SN7 as drivers. Yet others use the 6SL7, but I did not have much luck with the ones I tried in my system. Wonder how the 6SL7 works as a driver with the 6SN7 as power tubes? Or all three 6SN7 tubes?

post #5454 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordy 
Wonder how the 6SL7 works as a driver with the 6SN7 as power tubes? Or all three 6SN7 tubes?

 



www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/3795#post_9952269
I did use happily 3 octals with my LD mk2 over 100 pages ago.
post #5455 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordy View Post
 

Hi Gibosi,

 

Looking forward to hear how the Japanese Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes sound. As an alternative to the Japanese Raytheon 8FQ7/8CG7 I can also recommend 8FQ7/8CG7 Sylvania tubes - seems the Japanese Raytheon tubes are hard to find; the Sylvanias should be more easily available. The main difference is that the Sylvanias have a little less bass punch; otherwise they sound similar.

 

As mentioned before, I am waiting for to try the 6SN7 tubes as power tubes once I get the adapters needed. I agree with the posts above that some tubes have been hyped up by marketing. However, in our comparison tests the DR tubes came out on top. (That was before the 6SN7 era.)

 

Another area that deserves more exploration is synergy. Not that I understand why, but certain tube combinations sound better. At one time I tried to speed up the listening tests by having two different tubes as drivers for the right and left channels and A/B the sound by turning the balance control all the way right or left. Even though the two channels in the LD are completely independent, it did not work. Somehow there was some kind of effect that one channel affected the other, and the only way to properly evaluate a tube was to have two of the same playing.

 

From the little window shopping I did looking at very high end systems I did notice that some of them use the 6SN7 as drivers. Yet others use the 6SL7, but I did not have much luck with the ones I tried in my system. Wonder how the 6SL7 works as a driver with the 6SN7 as power tubes? Or all three 6SN7 tubes?

 

I'm using the 6SU7GTY as my driver (basically a 6SL7) and love it with the 6SN7GTB as the power tubes.

 

Haven't tried them with other tube types yet.


Edited by mab1376 - 3/18/14 at 6:23am
post #5456 of 10501
We need some pictures of the octal setups for the thread. smily_headphones1.gif
post #5457 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post
 

 

I am not entirely surprised. To my way of thinking, the primary selling point of the 6N30P-DR is its linearity and neutrality. And I admit that for quite some time, I felt that output tubes/op amps should be as neutral as possible in order to reveal the true sonic signature of the drivers. However, in the process of rolling op amps in my LD1+, I discovered that neutral and linear often just doesn't sound very good. These very neutral chips had poor synergy with my driver tubes. The combination simply wasn't "musical." My current opamp, the MUSES02, is not all that neutral or linear, but it has a wonderful synergy with my driver tubes, and offers a very musical presentation.

 

Similarly, the E80CC is tops in terms of linearity and neutrality. However, as a driver in my system, it too lacks "musicality". While I still consider it to be a very good tube, it doesn't get much playing time in my system. I primarily use it as a standard to evaluate new tubes. Comparing them to the E80CC helps me to determine how their frequency response deviates from neutral. But in the end, 6SN7s and ECC40s are getting the vast majority of the playing time.

 

As your C3gs are also very linear, I suspect that combining them with the very neutral 6N30P-DRs is simply not a good match. No synergy. Whereas, the less linear, but bassy and warm Psvanes have great synergy with your C3gs. And I am looking forward to reading your observations regarding the 1940's Sylvania VT231 in your system.

 

Hi gibosi.

Very interesting points you make - possibly the reason, but not wholly convinced!..viz since the Psvanes (MKII) are supposedly 'tuned' more to a 'modern' upper frequency character, logic would therefore be somewhat hard-pressed to explain why they are surpassing the DRs in EVERY respect - with now just 24hrs on them, and apparently even more improvement to come. But perhaps this 'synergy' effect (which also seems to bamboozle mordy!) defies ALL logic (which always unsettles me, lol!). Perhaps one day (if I ever find time?) I may do a pile of comparison combinations re DRs/30Pi - EH/6N6P and various drivers...but can't promise...In the meantime, what happens when the Sylvania VT231s arrive may well shed some more light on the matter...hope so.

As an aside - but may also be related/relevant? - I have noticed that there is nowhere near the same level of 'sshhh' when the volume is turned right to max (with no music playing!), compared to the DRs. My gut feeling is still that the DRs are NOT AT ALL worth the kind of bucks demanded...but who am I?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordy

 

As mentioned before, I am waiting for to try the 6SN7 tubes as power tubes once I get the adapters needed. I agree with the posts above that some tubes have been hyped up by marketing. However, in our comparison tests the DR tubes came out on top. (That was before the 6SN7 era.)

 

Another area that deserves more exploration is synergy. Not that I understand why, but certain tube combinations sound better.

 

Yo mordy...they may well have come out on top, but perhaps (as I mentioned previously) they were simply the 'big fish in a small pond'?!

 

Certainly MUCH more work needs to be done re 'synergy'...are you volunteering? As you said, the only way to get any idea whatsoever is to have both channels operating in tandem - a lot of work!

 

Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

We need some pictures of the octal setups for the thread. smily_headphones1.gif

 

Hi TD...mine's on P363 (mind you, LOCTALS to the fore!!).


Edited by hypnos1 - 3/18/14 at 9:18am
post #5458 of 10501

Hi hypnos1,

 

Once I get the adapters I'll give the synergy theory a shot - I have about a dozen each of 6SL7 and 6SN7 tubes. Re the DR Super Tubes it seems that the IR tubes are quite close so it could be marketing hype (or the biggest fish in a small pond).

 

We have to form our own honest opinions and I would not be surprised if some inexpensive relatively unknown tubes make it to the top of the list - can't wait!

post #5459 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordy View Post
 

Hi hypnos1,

 

Once I get the adapters I'll give the synergy theory a shot - I have about a dozen each of 6SL7 and 6SN7 tubes. Re the DR Super Tubes it seems that the IR tubes are quite close so it could be marketing hype (or the biggest fish in a small pond).

 

We have to form our own honest opinions and I would not be surprised if some inexpensive relatively unknown tubes make it to the top of the list - can't wait!

 

Hi mordy.

 

I look forward (as I am sure does everyone else!) to your findings...methinks you'll be doing a good few 24hr sessions - poor you!! But we will all? be rooting for you...as for me, I need my beauty sleep, alas...

 

In a way I hope it's just a case of wishful thinking re the 'inexpensive/unknown...........'. With what I've spent on DRs and Psvanes (at least I got the VT231s for small dosh) I would be mightily miffed, lol!. Ah well, the things we do in the name of research/progress!....(Mind you, I doubt they would look as gorgeous - to my eyes anyway - as the Psvanes! And I must admit I have never seen a better-made tube...not everything that comes out of China is poorly-made c**p.

post #5460 of 10501
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKELAP View Post
 

Well its a done deal i am the proud owner of a gorgeous Woo Audio 2 tube amp .My treat picture wise of course lol.                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                         CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 95

                                                   

Congratulations!

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