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Little Dot Tube Amps: Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide - Page 285

post #4261 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes View Post
 

The Crack is never designed to be a tube rollers amp, The LD 3 and 4s are. 

 

I'm getting so sad, i need to stop rolling with my LD 2 and get back to original chinese 6N6 6J1 tubes combination? :triportsad: 

post #4262 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

+1 to that and well put.

Chasing down $5 Heptodes was a lot of fun. Seeking out a single tube less than $50 has taken a little of the sparkle out of it all.

But do "Roll On" by all means!
beerchug.gif

What do they say about idle hands........!                                                                                                                


Edited by MIKELAP - 12/6/13 at 11:34am
post #4263 of 5944

why not roll E182CCs in the 3 and 4? or a 5687, still very affordable and mega tubes. Granted 6900 are probably out :) What happened to the great 6J1p EV for 50cents US from the early 70s?


Edited by Nic Rhodes - 12/6/13 at 11:50am
post #4264 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes View Post
 

why not roll E182CCs in the 3 and 4? or a 5687, still very affordable and mega tubes. Granted 6900 are probably out :)

 

Apparently, these tubes require more current than the LD can provide. To the best of our knowledge, we are limited to .5amps.

 

The E182CC, .64amps in 6 volt mode. The 5687, .9amps. And the 6900, 1.0 amps.

post #4265 of 5944

what is the filament current of the 6h30 pi again?


Edited by Nic Rhodes - 12/6/13 at 12:36pm
post #4266 of 5944

Phew guys...didn't expect so much response to my humble post - but thanks to everyone. Looks like I (and my wallet) have been saved from possible anguish...what shall I do NOW all Winter - venture into octal land? Or take heed of Nic's penetrating comments and retreat gracefully?

Such a dilemma...Actually, after seeing the sheer magical beauty of 'Yamamoto' tube amps ($4,000 +), had thought of taking up bank robbery. But 'she who must be obeyed' talked me out of it - spoilsport! So it looks like I might still be around to see what happens here, back in down-to-earth land (one can dream/drool, can't one? Having found this thread has a lot to answer for!!...).

 

Cheers guys.

post #4267 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes View Post
 

what is the filament current of the 6h30 pi again?

 

It is .9amps.

 

Did you mean the E182CC to be used as a driver tube? or a power tube? 

post #4268 of 5944

power tube obviously, it is the stock tube of the 4se (? I bought my amp without). There is a current facination with just the pre tube when all the other roller tubes amps look far further a field with significant emphasis on the power tube. Yes I do use these tubes as drivers elsewhere (Zikkra 600se has all of 5687, E182CC and 5751 as the drivers on one amp) but the latter two are really the replacemenets for the 6N6 family (which is why they are used to drive a PSE 300bs in the the Zikkra). The mega tube for pennies was where much of the inspiration of this thread started with all the slightly oddball high end tubes for pennies like EH90, EH900, EK90 etc, we all know CV2493 and CCas are mega but with mega prices and need DIY (as opposed to simple adapter).


Edited by Nic Rhodes - 12/6/13 at 11:16pm
post #4269 of 5944
The transformer in the MK IV provides the power tubes with 2.5 amps between them, or a buck and a quarter each. smily_headphones1.gif
post #4270 of 5944

Amperex 6922 Faceoff

 

I have a 1961 US-Amperex 6922 (VL6 Asterisk1B) and a 1961 Holland-Amperex 6922 (VL6 Delta1K3), same year and change code. Reviews comparing US-made Amperex and Holland-made Amperex almost always mention that the mid range on the Holland tubes is just a bit more forward. One of the reasons I purchased the Holland 6922 was to give me the opportunity to experience this difference, with all other things being equal. And in fact, as expected, this is the only difference I hear between these tubes.

 

Which is best? I am beginning to think that any one tube at this level is seldom, if ever, "better" than the others. I think it really comes down to "ears and gear." Where on the mid range continuum does one feel the most comfortable. Both AFB and I found the mid range on the 1964 US-made Amperex 6922 to be a bit too lean and dry. But I am sure there are others who would find the tonality of that tube to be perfect. The 1961 US-made Amperex is just a tad bit warmer, and the 1961 Holland-made Amperex is a bit warmer still. I think I prefer the US-made Holland, but very frankly, both of these tubes can easily take me to cloud nine. :)

post #4271 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

Amperex 6922 Faceoff

I have a 1961 US-Amperex 6922 (VL6 Asterisk1B) and a 1961 Holland-Amperex 6922 (VL6 Delta1K3), same year and change code. Reviews comparing US-made Amperex and Holland-made Amperex almost always mention that the mid range on the Holland tubes is just a bit more forward. One of the reasons I purchased the Holland 6922 was to give me the opportunity to experience this difference, with all other things being equal. And in fact, as expected, this is the only difference I hear between these tubes.

Which is best? I am beginning to think that any one tube at this level is seldom, if ever, "better" than the others. I think it really comes down to "ears and gear." Where on the mid range continuum does one feel the most comfortable. Both AFB and I found the mid range on the 1964 US-made Amperex 6922 to be a bit too lean and dry. But I am sure there are others who would find the tonality of that tube to be perfect. The 1961 US-made Amperex is just a tad bit warmer, and the 1961 Holland-made Amperex is a bit warmer still. I think I prefer the US-made Holland, but very frankly, both of these tubes can easily take me to cloud nine. smily_headphones1.gif

Nice comparison, gibosi!

I managed to spend a little quality time with my Philips E188CC (VR2 delta, 1960), and even though I didn't directly AB it with the US 1962 Amperex 6922, I have started to understand what these tubes can do.

The midrange is where it's at, definitely. The Holland E188CC probably have the most glorious - for lack of a better word - midrange I've heard to date. Read Joe's tube lore and many people take on the famous and elusive "pinched waist" Holland or US made tubes from the late 50's, yeah, the midrange sounds exactly like they write: liquid, lush, palpable and ultra musical.

But for now, approaching the 20 hour mark on the E188CC, I keep going from one extreme feeling to another. On some songs and watching videos, this is the best yet: immersive, absolutely quiet, and pure holographic sound with a glorious midrange. But on other songs, I'm just not finding the fun I'd gotten used to with the US 6922: the bass isn't as punchy - for now - and the treble (not high midrange, but high frequencies) is tamer and almost too musical - soft and clean - for my tastes.

So I'm a little puzzled now lol... At the same time I haven't felt the need to put the US 6922 back in, and I am listening to liquid glory through my headphones, but I'm also missing a little fun and punch... Musical paradise vs a meaner punch that draws you in faster.

Looking forward to your comparative take on the E188CC vs other premiums, gibosi! And yes, the Holland midrange and vocals are a bit more forward than the US versions.
post #4272 of 5944

Just found out I actually had a multimeter in my house, so I immediately processed to go and measure my LD!

 

But what I discovered kind of scares me lol...

 

My MK IV SE with a Philips E188CC Holland 1960

 

Heater  -  5.82V


Plate (R) - 75.2V    Grid (R) - 2.06V
Plate (L)  - 75.2V    Grid (L)  - 2.09V

 

And that's with a wall line - European - voltage of 222V, on a regular Saturday afternoon, as in, not a weekday in peek time.

 

I have to admit that the heater voltage worries me a little... 5.8V is way below specs. I could assume that the meter I'm using is crap, but the other measurements seem OK and consistent (those triodes are clearly well matched).

 

I measured the heater with the AC setting and the other voltages with the DC setting as per recommendations. What happens if I measure the heater voltage in DC?

 

I guess I'll try this again late at night, when electricity is "better", you know...

post #4273 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofanboy View Post

But for now, approaching the 20 hour mark on the E188CC, I keep going from one extreme feeling to another. On some songs and watching videos, this is the best yet: immersive, absolutely quiet, and pure holographic sound with a glorious midrange. But on other songs, I'm just not finding the fun I'd gotten used to with the US 6922: the bass isn't as punchy - for now - and the treble (not high midrange, but high frequencies) is tamer and almost too musical - soft and clean - for my tastes.

So I'm a little puzzled now lol... At the same time I haven't felt the need to put the US 6922 back in, and I am listening to liquid glory through my headphones, but I'm also missing a little fun and punch... Musical paradise vs a meaner punch that draws you in faster.

 

The treble!  Yes, I heard this difference between the Holland and US 6922s, but didn't quite understand what it was that I was hearing... So yes, the mid range is more forward on the Holland tube, but the treble is a bit softer compared with the US tube. I noticed that metallic sounds, like cymbals, seem to be a bit sharper and more "real" on the US tube. This makes me even more curious about the Suresnes, France-made 6922, which (per Brent Jessee) has the Holland mid range with a bit more treble "punch" and detail.

post #4274 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofanboy View Post
 

But what I discovered kind of scares me lol...

 

My MK IV SE with a Philips E188CC Holland 1960

 

Heater  -  5.82V


Plate (R) - 75.2V    Grid (R) - 2.06V
Plate (L)  - 75.2V    Grid (L)  - 2.09V

 

And that's with a wall line - European - voltage of 222V, on a regular Saturday afternoon, as in, not a weekday in peek time.

 

That heater voltage does seem to be much too low.... If the heater voltage is too high, we can always add resistance to the circuit. But what does one do if the heater voltage is too low?

post #4275 of 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes View Post
 

The Crack is never designed to be a tube rollers amp, The LD 3 and 4s are. The choice of sticking with a 12AU7 for the Crack is the right call. It is  what is designed to work with and VERY well with speedball (rolling is just poor here, just look at Doc posts). The LD is a fun amp that we can have fun to roll all sorts of cheap tubes in. This recent move to the ' more normal tubes' of other amps use routinely is rather missing the essence of the LD inho. I have shed loads of 5751s, '88s' etc but I also have other amps that use these tubes very much better. The '88' ain't a bad roll with difficulty but just because you can roll a tube doesn't make it a good operating point for the tube in the LD and there are far too many other tubes being talked about now that are just way off the mark (12AX7s?!)....For me the essence of the LD was the tube rolling for all, we are now moving into area where it is an area of just 6 (of us). Have we lost what was fun for these LD?


Hi Nic.

 

Whereas I can see where you are coming from, after a day pondering your words while further revisiting my various test albums (with ears and head now back on track after a bad cold, and hearing music like I've never experienced before), I feel compelled to try and summarise what has been happening here for some time now - thanks to the dedication, patience, enquiring nature and willingness to share acquired knowledge (at great financial cost also) of a small group of wonderful guys.

 

Basically, I believe the ethos has been not to 'stagnate' at a particular level, at a particular price point, but to keep moving forward and see just how much further the LDs can be coaxed from 'not bad for the money' to something that can compete rather more with much bigger boys - both tubed and SS. This surely is the goal for anyone in any area of "hi-fi".

And this is precisely what has been achieved (and is continuing, but perhaps now much closer to the 'peak') in a relatively short period of time. As for myself, being a newbie to tube amps prior to finding this thread, I have gained MUCH in these past months and have been fortunate enough to share some of the delights and sense of achievement common, I am sure, to many others who have also been following this progress...there have been DEFINITE improvements over stock tubes, 6J1Ps etc. etc., often with the need for just minor mods.

 

As for the recent forays into 9-pin land  -  and the need for rather more 'DIY' (yes, perhaps octals might prove a step too far for many), this surely has benefits for most people who are so interested as to have discovered this particular thread viz - learning a bit more about what is going on with our equipment, and as a consequence the results that we are hearing. I would liken it in some ways (but FAR less punishing/dirty etc.) to having a go at some basic car maintenance/repairs. Learning, and seeing, what is actually going on in some vital areas of functioning can be not only interesting, but gives much greater insight into something that is otherwise taken for granted (in sometimes dangerous ignorance), and adds to the overall appreciation of just what we have! Not to mention the immense satisfaction that comes from the achievement of something that perhaps we may not have contemplated before (especially when it costs far less than in the hands of a commercial 'pro')... Mind you, the skills/effort required to enter the 9-pin game are certainly not in the same league as aforementioned car mechanics, I can assure you!!

 

And so the upshot of my ramblings has to be that yes, what the 'pioneers' have been doing here HAS been of great interest and benefit to anyone wishing to reach further into 'audiophile' land, without actually having to spend TOO much money - especially if canny enough to let others do all the leg work/empty the wallet!!

 

As I continue to revel in what is entering my eardrums, I KNOW there is a modicum of truth in what I have tried to put across...I repeat : this modest Little Wonder (MKIV SE) is another animal entirely to what I started off with, and have no regrets whatsoever in following every step that has been taken up to the present time. I am sure I am not alone in this, by any means...

 

May the force continue...


Edited by hypnos1 - 12/7/13 at 9:27am
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