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Little Dot Tube Amps: Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide - Page 119

post #1771 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acapella11 View Post

 

Hi Audiofanboy, I was kind of curious about your current point of view.

It boils down to preference, incl. the setup your are using, and tube.

 

What we (all of us) could do in this thread are a few generalizations of the effect of strapping / non-strapping of heptodes in EF95 setting.

So, here are are some statements for discussion.

 

- Non-strapping, Gives most relaxed sound (as in least forward) and includes most ambience as well. Should work well with every heptode.

- 1/7, Includes more treble bias and can reveal more detail. Depending on tube you could loose depth of stage resulting in a more forward sound. A good way to make the tube "more engaging".

- 2/7, This is ambiguous for me. A total no go for the Tung Sol 6BE6 (bass crazy), not too much effect for the 6A6P, quite nice with the Amperex E91H - that's just me ;) (more treble, more engaging, more forward).

- EF91/92 (= 6/7 or 5/7), so far hardly useful strap for most tubes. For 6BE6, it yields more treble but lesser ambience and overall doesn't sound balanced. Having have said that, the 6A2P I have is quite bass heavy and with not too deep stage, so this strap actually could do something good.

 

Please respond everyone. I understand that it can take a while from now to reach final conclusion but once reached, I will add this to the table on p. 77.

 

Thanks hypnos1, no I am not in sound engineering. I am just trying to analyze and describe what I hear. I am used to analyze and explain other matters work wise.

 

Definition of focus from this post: Focus - A strong, precise sense of image projection.

 

So, when I write focus, I mean the quality of an image rendered in my head, coming from listening. If borders and shape of heads and instruments become better defined, then focus is improved. Think of lense focus. Your "loss of control" could also include instrument separation, which again can be a result of lesser focus and a narrower stage. Difficult to say. Definitely keep writing, you will notice that your listening analysis changes as your vocabulary changes, which helps to write your experience. Of course, we all do this for the pleasure of music and sound and that is in fact the most important thing. =)

Hi, I recently purchased a LD1+ for my SR325is's. The LD came with upgraded 6AK5W Siemens tubes (I wouldn't know the difference). I find my 325is's (for my tastes) need to be more upfront and engaging and have more clarity, detail and treble. I am totally new to this tube rolling, and have never opened my LD yet or heard any other tube amp ( only SS amps). From reading this particular post I see that STR​APPING + 1/7 opposed to NON- STRAPPING ( I assume) sounds like something I would definitley be interested in hearing. I would appreciate if you can tell me if I do this this with my LD1+ and with these tubes, also  what STRAPPING is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe from some diagrams I have seen, 1/7 refer to the pins on the tubes, which I think should be jumped together? Thank you.

post #1772 of 8784
I've been following this as well Joseph, my ms2s are supposed to get here tomorrow, if tracking is correct
post #1773 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph69 View Post

Hi, I recently purchased a LD1+ for my SR325is's. The LD came with upgraded 6AK5W Siemens tubes (I wouldn't know the difference). I find my 325is's (for my tastes) need to be more upfront and engaging and have more clarity, detail and treble. I am totally new to this tube rolling, and have never opened my LD yet or heard any other tube amp ( only SS amps). From reading this particular post I see that STR​APPING + 1/7 opposed to NON- STRAPPING ( I assume) sounds like something I would definitley be interested in hearing. I would appreciate if you can tell me if I do this this with my LD1+ and with these tubes, also  what STRAPPING is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe from some diagrams I have seen, 1/7 refer to the pins on the tubes, which I think should be jumped together? Thank you.

 

Strapping is a surprisingly low tech-way to connect tube pins together in the socket. This enables us to use tubes that otherwise could not be used in LD amps. Or in the case of heptodes, with 5 internal grids, strapping allows us to explore several different configurations in our quest to obtain the best sound.
 
I should note that your Siemens 6AK5W would never require strapping. Check out page 77 for more information regarding the strappings we are using for various tubes.  
 
We are currently talking about heptodes, 6BE6, 6BY6 and 6CS6. Strapping pins 1 and 7 seems to provide good results with the 6BY6 and 6CS6, but not with the 6BE6.
 
Essentially, you will need to find some 26 gauge, or smaller, stranded wire. Again, stranded, not solid, and very thin. Cut two small pieces, and strip the insulation off of each end, such that you can bend both of them into a U shape, and carefully insert them into your sockets, one end in pin-hole 1 and the other end in pin-hole 7. And then, carefully insert your tubes into the sockets. Thus, pin 1 and pin 7 are "strapped."
 
Again, simple, but if you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask!
post #1774 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaywillin View Post

I've been following this as well Joseph, my ms2s are supposed to get here tomorrow, if tracking is correct

I originally purchased the MS2i over the SR325is after reading over 500 posts on Head-fi about the MS2i, but traded them for the 325's because they were too mellow for me and I felt they didn't have that  forward Grado sound. Before purchasing the MS2i, I owned a pair of SR80i's that I unfortunately destroyed and decided to move up the chain. In the end I wound up re-purchasing the 80's and enjoy them more than my 325's, this is why I purchased the LD1+ to hear if they sound any better with a dedicated headphone amp than my Adcom GFP710 pre-amp headphone out, they don't, they sound veiled compared to my80's, out of both amps, so I want to try to roll the tubes for more clarity, space and detail (like the 80'shave at least to me). I've been on the forum for a couple of hours this afternoon listening to the LD and the 325's, then I switched to the 80's and got a refreshing blast of clarity, detail and separation (with out rolling the tubes, obviously). I'm realizing (maybe finally accepting) that I prefer the sound of the 80's over the 325's, even though they are technically superior to the 80's, and I may feel a little buyers remorse for spending the extra 200$. Please don't get me wrong the 325's and the MS2i's sound beautiful, I am not knocking them at all in any way, I just prefer the 80's, and I'm trying to turn my 325's into 80's, which I know I should not be trying to do (but I am).

I'm not giving up on the 325's, because they are smoother and warmer than the 80's, just not as crisp, clear, detailed and upfront as the 80's, this is why I'm still interested in trying this tube set up.

BTW, the LD1+ is a really nice little amp, just need to purchase the Schiit Magni/Modi combo to see which I prefer because I was interested in both, so I purchased the LD first due to the fact that I can change to tubes to manipulate the sound to my preference, but I do like the LD with the 80's just the way I recieved it with the upgraded Siemens 6AK5W tubes,(not that I've heard the stock tubes).

Also this is why I'm interested in your impressions on the MS2i.

post #1775 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

 

Strapping is a surprisingly low tech-way to connect tube pins together in the socket. This enables us to use tubes that otherwise could not be used in LD amps. Or in the case of heptodes, with 5 internal grids, strapping allows us to explore several different configurations in our quest to obtain the best sound.
 
I should note that your Siemens 6AK5W would never require strapping. Check out page 77 for more information regarding the strappings we are using for various tubes.  
 
We are currently talking about heptodes, 6BE6, 6BY6 and 6CS6. Strapping pins 1 and 7 seems to provide good results with the 6BY6 and 6CS6, but not with the 6BE6.
 
Essentially, you will need to find some 26 gauge, or smaller, stranded wire. Again, stranded, not solid, and very thin. Cut two small pieces, and strip the insulation off of each end, such that you can bend both of them into a U shape, and carefully insert them into your sockets, one end in pin-hole 1 and the other end in pin-hole 7. And then, carefully insert your tubes into the sockets. Thus, pin 1 and pin 7 are "strapped."
 
Again, simple, but if you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Thank you for your reply! When you speak of (heptodes), 6BY6 and 6CS6,) is good with 1/7, but not with 6BE6, what are (heptodes) and do I have these in this amp, what does this mean?

So it is safe to strap 1/7 together on the 6AK5W tubes? Thank you.

post #1776 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph69 View Post

Thank you for your reply! When you speak of (heptodes), 6BY6 and 6CS6,) is good with 1/7, but not with 6BE6, what are (heptodes) and do I have these in this amp, what does this mean?

So it is safe to strap 1/7 together on the 6AK5W tubes? Thank you.

 

No it is not safe to strap 1/7 with your 6AK5W.

 

Your LD was designed to convert pentodes into triodes. Triodes have three electrodes: cathode, grid and anode. Pentodes have five electrodes: cathode, three grids and anode. So your LD straps these two extra grids internally to convert pentodes into triodes. Thus, your LD converts the 6AK5W, a pentode, into a triode. You do not have to do anything.

 

However, there are some pentodes that have a different pin out from the 6AK5, and therefore, the LD cannot convert them into triodes. So we help the LD by strapping pins together. Once pins 2 and 7 are strapped, these other pentodes become like the 6AK5, and we can use them in the LD.

 

Heptodes have 7 electrodes. So we have to find a away to strap the 4 extra grids, again, so the heptode becomes like a 6AK5.

 

So, if you would like to follow along with us, I would suggest that you find some nice 6AU6 and 6AH6 (pentode) tubes. Strapping pins 2 and 7, you can then use them like a 6AK5. And you also might want to find some nice 6BE6, 6BY6 and 6CS6 (heptode) tubes. For most of the 6BE6, just plug them in like a 6AK5. You can also plug the 6BY6 and 6CS6 in like a 6AK5, but many of us think they sound better strapping pins 1 and 7.

post #1777 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

 

No it is not safe to strap 1/7 with your 6AK5W.

 

Your LD was designed to convert pentodes into triodes. Triodes have three electrodes: cathode, grid and anode. Pentodes have five electrodes: cathode, three grids and anode. So your LD straps these two extra grids internally to convert pentodes into triodes. Thus, your LD converts the 6AK5W, a pentode, into a triode. You do not have to do anything.

 

However, there are some pentodes that have a different pin out from the 6AK5, and therefore, the LD cannot convert them into triodes. So we help the LD by strapping pins together. Once pins 2 and 7 are strapped, these other pentodes become like the 6AK5, and we can use them in the LD.

 

Heptodes have 7 electrodes. So we have to find a away to strap the 4 extra grids, again, so the heptode becomes like a 6AK5.

 

So, if you would like to follow along with us, I would suggest that you find some nice 6AU6 and 6AH6 (pentode) tubes. Strapping pins 2 and 7, you can then use them like a 6AK5. And you also might want to find some nice 6BE6, 6BY6 and 6CS6 (heptode) tubes. For most of the 6BE6, just plug them in like a 6AK5. You can also plug the 6BY6 and 6CS6 in like a 6AK5, but many of us think they sound better strapping pins 1 and 7.

Thank you for your information, I am going to look into purchasing the tubes that you have mentioned above. I have also read that RCA-6AV6 tubes give an brighter, more upfront sound also. Being that I can purchase the 6BE6 tube and just plug them in, I will look into these first and see if any bring my 325's upfront with more clarity and detail. Thank you again for your time and guidance in my first step in tube rolling, in the mean time I will continue to read and take in what I can. Thank you again!

Thank for the warning on NOT strapping 1/7 on the LD, I may have tried this if I wasn't informed not to.

post #1778 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph69 View Post

.......Please don't get me wrong the 325's and the MS2i's sound beautiful, I am not knocking them at all in any way, I just prefer the 80's, and I'm trying to turn my 325's into 80's, which I know I should not be trying to do (but I am).

I'm not giving up on the 325's, because they are smoother and warmer than the 80's, just not as crisp, clear, detailed and upfront as the 80's, this is why I'm still interested in trying this tube set up.

.......

 

Also this is why I'm interested in your impressions on the MS2i.

 

While I have no experience with these headphones, perhaps there are others in this forum who might be able to suggest specific tubes that would go well with your 325s.


Edited by gibosi - 7/4/13 at 1:54pm
post #1779 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph69 View Post

Thank you for your information, I am going to look into purchasing the tubes that you have mentioned above. I have also read that RCA-6AV6 tubes give an brighter, more upfront sound also.....

 

If you wish to try 6AV6 / EBC91 tubes, you will need to cut off pins 5 and 6. Plus you will need to open your amp and install the EF92 jumpers. Again, page 77 is a very good summation of how to use the tubes we have tried.

 

Happy tube rolling! :)

post #1780 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

 

While I have no experience with these headphones, perhaps there are others in this forum who might be able to suggest specific tubes that would go well with your MS2i.

I no longer own the MS2i, I own the SR80i and the SR325is. I'm trying to get the upfront clarity and detail that I get with my 80's combined with the smoothness and depth of the 325's, I will continue searching the thread for anyone who has advice on tubes I may be interested in for this sound, before starting a new thread on this. Thanks for the advice.

post #1781 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

 

If you wish to try 6AV6 / EBC91 tubes, you will need to cut off pins 5 and 6. Plus you will need to open your amp and install the EF92 jumpers. Again, page 77 is a very good summation of how to use the tubes we have tried.

 

Happy tube rolling! :)

Yes , while reading some of the current posts on this thread, I was guided to page 77, and I saved this page in my favorites. Thanks,

post #1782 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofanboy View Post

 

A11, nice, precise post, as usual!

 

Let's see: I think the way you describe the "effects" -perceived and described by everyone here but obviously quite subjective- is very close to the "pattern" I hear, as far as the 1-7, 2-7 and EF92 settings go.

 

- 1-7 always seems to yield some degree of high-end emphasis; not necessarily more treble per se, or more treble than unstrapped, but definitely more perceived detail -usually. I personally like that setting on most 6BY6 types, though I am having the worse time making up my mind whether or not I could live with it as my permanent go-to setting.

 

- 2-7 -which I admittedly have only tried on one pair of tubes- feels, imo, a bit more relaxed or laid-back somewhat; not by lack of focus or detail, but just by seemingly "taming" some of the rougher aspects emphasized on the 1-7 setting. An interesting setting, worth a try, but I still prefer the 1-7 or unstrapped setting up to now. Try it and help us make up our minds lol. I realize that I'm increasingly straying away from a preference for a laid-back sound and more towards clinical precision and ultra-detail with time though, so I may be biased -but aren't we all though?

 

- Unstrapped has never sounded bad on every heptode I tried it on. At worse, like on 6BY6 tubes, it sounds a bit less high-strung than with the 1-7 mod, and more relaxed, though not always less forward (my Tele EH900S are just as forward on both settings); and at best it sounds natural and effortless, hardly a bad setting to try. Consensus does seem to be in favor of this setting for 6BE6 type tubes. I can't quite say I feel the same about ambience, though I understand exactly what you mean A11. I do feel that the sound is wetter and more "physiological" or natural, but I find I hear more "recorded ambience information" along with the extra perceived detail and soundstage with the 1-7 mod -on 6BY6 tubes.

 

- EF92 setting has been horrific in my experience, it disgusted me of heptodes for a month... Still worth testing, if only for reference though; and you never know when you find a setting that works well for no reason , right?

 

The detail is appreciated AFB. I will keep the info in mind. Obviously, due to preference and gear 1/7 could be favoured over say 2/7 for 6BY6 or 6CS6 ;). It will be fun to be able to sum this up in the end. :)

 

Btw. I just want to report about a recent interesting experience. I have a friend interested in high end audio and he kept coming to me saying , I need to try to filter / condition my mains. I was like, "oh no just a voodoo thing". Recently, he came up and loaned me a mains filter like this. Connected to the LD and I didn't expect a thing. I was quite surprised to actually hear a difference. The sound is opener, a little more treble bias but also transparency. Bass is more defined as well, hits a bit harder. Now depending on your mains, the difference may be bigger or very small. Depending on your preference, the sound may be better or not. My conclusion is, I buy one of these.

Currently, I am listening to the Siemens EH90 (6CS6) posted before with 2/7 strap (would you believe it ;) ) and it is really really good. It is worth to give this a try and since it also protects from surge, it is useful anyways.

 

Edit: After comparing unstrapped and 2/7, I must say that although 2/7 sounds cleaner with a bit more focus, unstrapped has a better tonal balance, so it basically depends on your setup which one to use.


Edited by Acapella11 - 7/6/13 at 7:59pm
post #1783 of 8784

Received my bundle of 6av6 and 6by6  from Florida today right now i got the 6by6 on theve been running for 5 hours and ive tried em strap EF95 1-7 and unstrapped ef95 with Senns hd800 and for my preference i like em unstrapped ef95 there more laid back a bit then on 1-7 i did not see what others said about these as of yet but 1-7 is not bad but maybe a little to much for me in the clean department.

 

Regarging the 6av6 i got RCA,WESTINGHOUSE,SYLVANIA G.E. JAN.G.E   i cut the pins off today will be filing them tomorrow man im busy good thing we dont have day jobs hey mordy. But for now  6BY6  EF95 UNSTRAPPED I LIKE.

post #1784 of 8784
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKELAP View Post

Received my bundle of 6av6 and 6by6  from Florida today right now i got the 6by6 on theve been running for 5 hours and ive tried em strap EF95 1-7 and unstrapped ef95 with Senns hd800 and for my preference i like em unstrapped ef95 there more laid back a bit then on 1-7 i did not see what others said about these as of yet but 1-7 is not bad but maybe a little to much for me in the clean department.

 

...But for now  6BY6  EF95 UNSTRAPPED I LIKE.

 

Just out of curiosity, how do you like 2/7?

post #1785 of 8784

Hi A11,

 

I have been using a Monster A/C filter/outlet center for years and it does make a difference. The sound is cleaner with a blacker background. It stands to reason that all kinds of electrical interference from appliances, fluorescent light bulbs, cordless phones, computers, etc etc create RF noise.

 

Another addition in combating interference is to install a dedicated line from your main fuse box to your audio equipment. In my case I try to use just one circuit for my audio but I don't really know how it is wired in my house and if a lot of other things are connected to it.

 

As mentioned before, I found that sound improves at night when many of these interference sources are not in use.

 

In heptode mode now - ordered some 20+ tubes to try out. 6BE6, 6CS6, 6BY6, 1680, 5750, 5915, 6H31. I am even getting a pair of Italian (designer?) tubes. The 50's advertising states as good as RCA tubes - we'll see. Did you ever hear of Fivre? Neither had I....

 

Anybody tried the Sylvania Gold Brand 1217?

 

Please add the tube designations 1217 , 1680 and 6H31 (all 6BE6) to your excellent chart on p.77.

 

I use this chart every day. On my printer the green comes out fine for yes, but the orange no is hard to see - how about red?

 

Another mystery in life: How can EBay stores that charge exorbitant prices for tubes sell any?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6BY6-Vacuum-Tubes-Lot-5-Delco-Standard-Sylvania-/400336379414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d35e85e16

 

I am not sure if the moose figure is included in the price....Nope, Homer the moose is not included, but at least you get free shipping.....

 

Have fun!

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