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Computer Audio Questions?

post #1 of 16
7/13/11 at 1:56pm
Thread Starter 

MULTI PART QUESTION! The first bits are about sound cards and then I'm going to ask questions about recievers, amps and headphones. I've asked elsewhere but I feel the need for a 'clearer' explanation on certain aspects that I feel were left unanswered in my own mind.


1.) So I've been looking at sound cards, I would like to know a few things. How many sound cards support the capability for 'front port audio' for convenience sake.

2.) Are sound cards worth it these days? I keep hearing that onboard audio is 'good enough' but on the otherhand I see that a lot of nifty audio features in games can't be activated using that (eax for example). Though, I've een told investing in a good set of speakers and an amplifier would be wiser.

3.) Amplifiers vs Recievers? Is there any amplifier or reciever I could just install into my tower for even more convenience sake?  Similar to a 5.25' drive? All I've read is a reciever is basically like a radio, and tends to have an inbuilt amplifier with some extra features. Wouldn't it just be better to go for an amp though? o.O What else is there to know?

4.) What should I look in for an amplifier or receiver?

5.) What are the EAX and Dolby-whateverthefudgeitscalledagain standards for anyways? :/ What do they provide?

6.) I'd like decent headphones at some point, I want something that sounds good accross all levels. Also, are there headphones capable of 'surround sound' or better? o.O Probably a stupid question but eh, I see a lot of things labeled 'HD audio!' and stuff so I'd figure I would ask.

7.) Also, about mics, I see the vast majority seem to use 'USB' do they still make mics with a normal mic jack? Since I've read these can work in most platforms or OSs and it be nice to get a decent quality mic that can work on mostly anything without having to worry about drivers.


Another sound card question, looking at these I have to ask:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132010

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271006

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132005


Whats up with all the different connection types? :/ What are they for exactly, what kind of hardware do they support? o.O Etc..etc...

I'm mostly asking since I'd like to insure I can make educated choices when buying my own audio equipment for either music or having a 'clear' discussion through the web say through skype or other pieces of software on the web without a decrease in quality. :/ Though, I also want to insure when someone asks me questions about anything they may want to add to their PCs or other equipment for audio I can inform them as well.

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post #2 of 16
7/13/11 at 2:27pm

This is a whole lotta questions.   I think you need to parse them a bit and try a few searches in the forums and on Google to get some answers on your own first.

 

Actually a lot of these questions can be answered at a local electronics store / computer store / or a decent hi-fi shop (guitar center.. ect).  From where you seem to be starting out, a think some visual and hands on sampling would help a lot!

 

You could also try places online that have learning centers such as crutchfield.

 

 

I am not being critical mind you, but some of these questions have very long answers and are somewhat based on taste.  I spent two years searching these forums (as well as several others) to get answers for stuff before I even joined.
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post #3 of 16
7/13/11 at 2:46pm
Thread Starter 

Well, I tried googling but I didn't find much that answered anything I wanted to know with the clarity I needed. Its amazing how much easier other pieces of hardware (monitors, processors, GPU's and whatever else you want to name) is easier to learn about than audio @_@;;


and probably, but I tend to avoid places were I feel thatsomeone would try to sell you something due to the fact that I wonder how much of the information is accurate or if they're just trying to treat you like a 'chump.' Looks like I'll need to look around though. :\


I'll checkout crutchfield too.


Edited by Edogaa - 7/13/11 at 2:48pm
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post #4 of 16
7/14/11 at 8:48am

First you should know I'm not a huge audio guy, I joined because I was going to ask a  question.

 

When it comes to the sound card it will all depend on the available on board audio. Most cheap motherboards come with cheap on board audio, technically speaking you will get much faster communication between the rest of the computer and your audio by using a sound card using something like PCI Express, you will also reduce the amount of load on the motherboard or rather chipset. The motherboard has to handle and interact with all on board services, for the average user you most likely won't realize the difference in motherboard load. Because I don't know a lot about audio I have no idea if the higher speed of communication can help much, in my experience a good sound card sounds better than any on board I have used.

 

Most good microphones for the computer should come with a standard 3.5m plug with an adapter to USB, only big exception to this is wireless microphones. I do see a lot of people use USB today to help avoid buying an expensive sound card, the USB often comes with virtual software paired with the physical adapter to create what would seem like a sound card. I have yet fined one that dose perform as well as a sound card, but they can do some pretty impressive stuff for the price tag. Again I'm not a big audio guy so I don't know how exactly this will all translate into better or worse sound, I'm simply a computer technician.

 

Hope that helped some?

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post #5 of 16
7/14/11 at 9:34am

There is another option...

 

To bypass the soundcard on my PC I use a USB amp/DAC (Ibasso D4).   It does the digital to analog conversion (DAC) from the usb port instead of on the soundcard.  It also amplifies the signal from there as well (a stand alone dac does not amplify volume).  So I have a little box I plug headphones (see list in signature) or external my speakers (NHT M-00).  The volume is controlled from the D4.  the D4 can also push out a non-amplified signal (for external amping)

 

The DAC and amp on the D4 are far superior in my opinion to the onboard sound of my PC.  For headphones I go out of the DAC/AMP plug on the D4.   When going to my amplified speakers (that have a volume control as a seperate unit) I plug into the DAC only plug and let the speakers handle amplification..

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post #6 of 16
7/14/11 at 10:03am

I'll bite, since I was like you at one point.. Maybe more experienced users will chime in with more informed opinions.
 

Quote:
1.) So I've been looking at sound cards, I would like to know a few things. How many sound cards support the capability for 'front port audio' for convenience sake.

 

Most, if not all, do. Look for a "front panel header" or something along those lines in the description. If you have a picture of the card, usually it looks like 2 rows of 5 pins each sticking up from the board. (Check the first and second link you provided for examples of both these things).

 

Quote:
2.) Are sound cards worth it these days? I keep hearing that onboard audio is 'good enough' but on the otherhand I see that a lot of nifty audio features in games can't be activated using that (eax for example). Though, I've een told investing in a good set of speakers and an amplifier would be wiser.

 

What do you mean by "worth it"? It depends on how much money you are willing to spend, and what application you're using it for. Onboard audio is "good enough" if you have cheap speakers/headphones, it's also great for outputting a digital signal through SPDIF to an external DAC, depending on how modern your motherboard is. EAX is a proprietary DSP preset for games, it's like a filter Creative puts over the signal to make it sound what Creative thinks is best for games. A lot of people consider this gimmicky. Whether you want to base your sound card purchase on a souped-up EQ provided by a manufacturer for only supported games is up to you. Most people at Head-Fi strive for accurate audio reproduction; that is, hearing what the original creator of the sound wanted you to hear, so many people would rather spend their money on a good set of speakers and an amplifier. 

 

Quote:
3.) Amplifiers vs Recievers? Is there any amplifier or reciever I could just install into my tower for even more convenience sake?  Similar to a 5.25' drive? All I've read is a reciever is basically like a radio, and tends to have an inbuilt amplifier with some extra features. Wouldn't it just be better to go for an amp though? o.O What else is there to know?

 

See:

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Cgo7J5xw8z2/m_10400/Receivers-Amps-Tuners.html

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/171290/question-what-s-the-difference-between-an-amplifier-and-a-receiver

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5015112_difference-between-stereo-amplifier-receiver.html

http://community.futureshop.ca/t5/Home-Audio-and-HD-Sound/The-Differences-Between-Amplifier-and-Receiver/td-p/71842

 

(Google is hard, I know). No, there are no receivers or amplifiers that could fit into a computer tower. Which one you need depends on your needs.

 

Quote:
4.) What should I look in for an amplifier or receiver?

 

Again, it's based on your needs. What kind of input you have, how many inputs you have, what kind of outputs you want, your speaker specs, etc.

 

Quote:
5.) What are the EAX and Dolby-whateverthefudgeitscalledagain standards for anyways? :/ What do they provide?

 

 

See:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_audio_extensions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS_(sound_system)

 

Quote:
6.) I'd like decent headphones at some point, I want something that sounds good accross all levels. Also, are there headphones capable of 'surround sound' or better? o.O Probably a stupid question but eh, I see a lot of things labeled 'HD audio!' and stuff so I'd figure I would ask.

 

What do you mean "sounds good accross all levels"? There is no single perfect headphone for every application - that's why this forum and its 3mil+ posts exist. Surround sound, as far as I'm aware, is a gimmick as well; it can be emulated through things like EAX and sound drivers, physical surround sound in headphones just means they have multiple drivers positioned around your ear to give you the illusion of "surround sound". None of these implementations comes close to a true 5.1 or 7.1 speaker set-up. I have no idea what "HD audio" means.

 

Quote:
7.) Also, about mics, I see the vast majority seem to use 'USB' do they still make mics with a normal mic jack? Since I've read these can work in most platforms or OSs and it be nice to get a decent quality mic that can work on mostly anything without having to worry about drivers.

 

Yes, they do. 

 

Quote:
Another sound card question, looking at these I have to ask:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132010

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271006

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132005


Whats up with all the different connection types? :/ What are they for exactly, what kind of hardware do they support? o.O Etc..etc...

 

 

All of them connect to your computer through PCI Express. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

 

 

 

First one - http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_Essence_STX/#specifications

 

Analog Output Jack:
RCA jack *2 (Front R / Front L), 6.30mm jack*1 (Headphone out) 
Analog Input Jack:
6.30mm jack *1 (Shared by Line-In/Mic-In) 
Other line-level analog input (for CD-IN/TV Tuner):
Aux-In (4-pin header on the card) 
Digital S/PDIF Output:
High-bandwidth Coaxial/TOS-Link combo port supports 192KHz/24bit 
Front-Panel Header:
Shared by Headphone out / 2 channels out / 
Microphone in 
S/PDIF Header:
Connects to compatiable graphic cards for HDMI output

 

 

 

Second one - http://www.htomega.com/eclaro.html

 

 

  • Onboard Digital optical output
  • Built-in front panel audio support
  • Headphone output by buffer circuit

 

 

 

Third one - http://uk.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_D2X/

 

Analog Output Jack:
3.50mm mini jack *4 (Front/Side/Center-Subwoofer/Back)

Analog Input Jack:
3.50mm mini jack *2 (Line-In/Mic-In)

Other line-level analog input (for CD-IN/TV Tuner):
CD-In, Aux-In (4-pin header on the card)

Digital S/PDIF Output
Coaxial and High-bandwidth Optical Combo Connector Supports 192KHz/24bit

Digital S/PDIF Input
Coaxial and High-bandwidth Optical Combo Connector Supports 192KHz/24bit

MIDI Ports
Additional MPU-401 MIDI I/O bracket and converter cable

 

 

 

There goes 15 minutes of my life. I want it back now. If you want to make educated choices, you have to read, learn, and decide for yourself instead of listening to others. 
 

 

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post #7 of 16
7/14/11 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamdring92 View Post

First you should know I'm not a huge audio guy, I joined because I was going to ask a  question.

 

When it comes to the sound card it will all depend on the available on board audio. Most cheap motherboards come with cheap on board audio, technically speaking you will get much faster communication between the rest of the computer and your audio by using a sound card using something like PCI Express, you will also reduce the amount of load on the motherboard or rather chipset. The motherboard has to handle and interact with all on board services, for the average user you most likely won't realize the difference in motherboard load. Because I don't know a lot about audio I have no idea if the higher speed of communication can help much, in my experience a good sound card sounds better than any on board I have used.

 

Most good microphones for the computer should come with a standard 3.5m plug with an adapter to USB, only big exception to this is wireless microphones. I do see a lot of people use USB today to help avoid buying an expensive sound card, the USB often comes with virtual software paired with the physical adapter to create what would seem like a sound card. I have yet fined one that dose perform as well as a sound card, but they can do some pretty impressive stuff for the price tag. Again I'm not a big audio guy so I don't know how exactly this will all translate into better or worse sound, I'm simply a computer technician.

 

Hope that helped some?

 

 

I don't think if you'd get faster communication with an external card - PCI-E is still slower than being soldered directly onto the motherboard with no intermediary bus to the North Bridge. From my knowledge I also don't think the onboard DAC loads the CPU to a noticeable degree; rather, using DSP/EAX/etc will use extra CPU cycles, so some sound cards (Asus/Creative for example) have an onboard CPU to deal with all of that.

 

Onboard usually sounds like crap because the DAC chip is put in as an afterthought, especially in pre-built computers like HP and Dells. And it has to compete with all the electronic interference inside the case. However, onboard keeps getting better and better, particularly in luxury motherboards from ASUS/Gigabyte, and it's always great for SPDIF output. 


 

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post #8 of 16
7/14/11 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sochee View Post

 

 

I don't think if you'd get faster communication with an external card - PCI-E is still slower than being soldered directly onto the motherboard with no intermediary bus to the North Bridge. From my knowledge I also don't think the onboard DAC loads the CPU to a noticeable degree; rather, using DSP/EAX/etc will use extra CPU cycles, so some sound cards (Asus/Creative for example) have an onboard CPU to deal with all of that.

 

Onboard usually sounds like crap because the DAC chip is put in as an afterthought, especially in pre-built computers like HP and Dells. And it has to compete with all the electronic interference inside the case. However, onboard keeps getting better and better, particularly in luxury motherboards from ASUS/Gigabyte, and it's always great for SPDIF output. 


 



It should be noted that if gaming is a concern, as in all games that have above average sound engines with advanced effects like reverb, occlusion and high polyphony, EAX 5 support (competing products only have EAX 2) and full hardware OpenAL acceleration, Creative cards should be on the top of the list, namely Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, which is literally the best gaming card out there, and less expensive than Asus Xonar Essence STX. But even the default X-Fi Titanium (previous generation) will perform above all the competition when it comes to gaming, while audio itself will only be stellar on the Titanium HD, an entirely different card. And like sochee said, Creative cards release all CPU cycles used for audio, Asus on a lesser degree, and onboard not at all.


Edited by Roller - 7/14/11 at 10:56am
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post #9 of 16
7/14/11 at 11:26am

Do external USB daps release cycles for audio?

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post #10 of 16
7/14/11 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Salad View Post

Do external USB daps release cycles for audio?



No, if anything they use more.

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post #11 of 16
7/14/11 at 12:03pm

 

Ahhh... Thanks...

 

I overheat at times on my laptop when gaming.. (Intel i7).  I will dump the Ibasso while gaming see if it helps..

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post #12 of 16
7/14/11 at 3:38pm


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sochee View Post

 

 

I don't think if you'd get faster communication with an external card - PCI-E is still slower than being soldered directly onto the motherboard with no intermediary bus to the North Bridge.

 


Sorry I was trying to use simplified terms, what I'm referring to in general here is the throughput of the connection and the shared system resources. In general system building we try to remove everything we can that has shared system resource and replace it with dedicated parts. I know this practice probably seems over the top to average users, that's why I wasn't sure if it could really help with audio. I know when working with a gamer we often replace the on board LAN to a dedicated card allowing it to handle all the communications instead of sharing the CPU and RAM,. This works very well, often reducing in game ping by 5-30 depending on the on board LAN.

I thought maybe the dedicated CPU and RAM might benefit the sound card this much too? I'm not sure exactly how sound cards work, I have not dealt with them enough apparently.

 

I fined reading on here very interesting because this is one area I'm not very knowledgeable at, in fact I was dumb enough to buy a pair of Bose 2 years ago.

 

 

Rat Salad, have you check the fan speed? A lot of manufactures keep the fan set to 50%-80% to keep the noise level down. You can try external software like speed fan, but you can always just set it in the BIOS.


Edited by glamdring92 - 7/14/11 at 4:15pm
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post #13 of 16
7/15/11 at 9:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sochee View Post

I'll bite, since I was like you at one point.. Maybe more experienced users will chime in with more informed opinions.

 

 

There goes 15 minutes of my life. I want it back now. If you want to make educated choices, you have to read, learn, and decide for yourself instead of listening to others. 
 

 



Well, its more like I don't know where to begin really. Not that I don't want to learn on my own.  Sorry if you feel it 'wasted your time,' though.blink.gif Not that it doesn't make sense, just makes you sound kind of irritable.I should also have specified it was more the 'input/output' female connectors that confused me since they all seem so different it makes it difficult to make a decent choice on what card is best for you assuming the card is actually worth it as an end user. Didn't need to express what PCI-e was since I was looking at those cards since they use PCI Express, I heard PCI is probably going to be phased out at some point in the future. Also noticed a lot of high end motherboards have either little to no PCI slots as well and since a lot of decent graphics cards also take up two slots a PCI-e card seems to give more choice of where you can put your card so you can allow a better flow of 'air' in your case (when it comes to the position of the cards that is). Then again, talking about how I knew about that but not about 'audio' in general probably makes me look like a jerk, I don't know for sure though. :\

tl'dr

Errr, I hope I didn't explain myself too much, either way thank you for your time. :P

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post #14 of 16
7/15/11 at 10:12am

Sochee put a lot of time into that post.  I think it was a fine effort!  smily_headphones1.gif.

 

Again, I suggest you really try and go get some hands on if possible (don't let salesmen intimidate you).  In fact, if you state where you are from (its not in your profile), I am sure members will be able to direct you to reputable dealers that will help you clear up confusion.

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post #15 of 16
7/15/11 at 11:44am

Sorry if I came off as a little sarcastic, but like I said, a couple of years ago I knew just as much as you. I posted on this forum with newbie questions and PM'ed people with very basic questions, and they tolerated me enough to give me good responses. So I feel I'm giving back :P If you have any more questions feel free to PM me.

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