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Philips SHE3580 IEM review--how can something sound so good for $10??? - Page 33

post #481 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillshot2 View Post

I just got these yesterday, but could only get a good fit with some Sony hybrid tips, which have a smaller hole than what the original Phillips tips have for sound to pass through. Does anyone know how this will affect the sound quality and sound stage? 


You should be good, i used a set from my GR02 BE which have a smaller opening and they sound great.

post #482 of 827

Ok cool. When I tried the large Philips tips I got some crazy bad popping from driver flex, so luckily that doesn't happen with the Sony tips.  After about 10 hours of use these sound very clear and detailed. I think I'm going to leave them playing moderately loud pink noise over night and see if they improve any

post #483 of 827
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillshot2 View Post

Ok cool. When I tried the large Philips tips I got some crazy bad popping from driver flex, so luckily that doesn't happen with the Sony tips.  After about 10 hours of use these sound very clear and detailed. I think I'm going to leave them playing moderately loud pink noise over night and see if they improve any

 

If you get driver flex you should return your pair.  These IEMs are ported at the front between the drivers and the ear canal, and should never have driver flex unless those ports are blocked for some reason.

post #484 of 827

I don't think the ebay seller I bought them from will accept returns, but they are indeed genuine 3581's (white). I can't think of anything else that would have made that popping noise... both the ports seem to be free from being clogged, and there is no difference in volume or sound quality between the left and right since I only got the popping when using the large philips stock tips on the left phone only. Maybe it was the tip folding on itself? (I usually try and get a really tight seal and maybe applied to much pressure?) Either way thy are sounding pretty good with the large Sony tips I have on without any suspected driver flex. These things also do have a ton of bass, so I know the seal is def there

post #485 of 827

Another IEM bites the dust at the gym. Here's what the inside of the SHE3580 looks like:

 

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Opening up the SHE3580 isn't as easy as it is on some other IEMs (like the Panasonic HJE120). I removed a lot of glue before taking photos. Not shown is the grill at the opening of the nozzle. There's a tiny piece of foam inside (shown above), but it may be too small to have any significant damping effect. Maybe it's also there to keep dust from the driver.

 

What's interesting is the port, which has been sealed shut from the inside in this particular sample, just like on the HJE120. I wonder if they left it open on other models in the 3500 series. Maybe the headset models that share the same housing?

 

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The rear chamber is vented by the conduit for the cable, though it might be blocked by the knot. The rubbery base, shown below, is made of a different material.

 

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I have difficulty listening to this IEM without an equalizer, unless I'm listening at a low volume (in which case, the SHE3850's frequency response acts like a "loudness" setting). Opening it up gives me ideas on how to get a flatter frequency response without electronic EQ. For example, to get less bass, I had thought about drilling a hole through the seal with a small wire-size drill bit. But the opening is very close to the driver, so be careful if you want to do that. I may still do that later.

 

Like on the HJE120 and the Sony MH1C, I have a work-around that gets a much flatter response. I'm listening to it right now, and I think it's a big improvement (given my preferences). Maybe I'll write about that later.

post #486 of 827

Is the port completely blocked so no air can pass through at all, or is it a felt like material that allows some sound leakage?

post #487 of 827
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the pics yuriv!
post #488 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillshot2 View Post

Is the port completely blocked so no air can pass through at all, or is it a felt like material that allows some sound leakage?

 

It's hard to tell because there's so much glue. But I did think the cover was porous. To confirm my hunch, I took a new pair and taped the ports shut. I got more driver flex and also more bass--both of which are undesired.


The hole in the plastic is large enough that if they did leave it completely open, it would be harder to build up enough pressure to get even a flat bass response. I wonder how consistent they are between samples with how well they limit the air flow through the port. The new pair seems to have a slight imbalance between the channels. Maybe it will go away with continued use.

post #489 of 827

 
if you equalize down the bass or make it flat the soundstage pretty wide actually,  similliar felling with monoprice 8320 that sound open, I think mid bass what reduce soundstage and make close in feel. like if I try to boost bass on monoprice then the sound become congested, also if you want to test the soundstage one or two tracks are not enough cause every track have different soundstage which then the phone make the track soundstage bigger or smaller. with philips default sound if I listen to music with dominant mid and less bass the sound stage already  wide compared with monoprice 8320, music with dominant bass make sounds feel close in .


Edited by HAMS - 1/3/13 at 5:27pm
post #490 of 827

longer tips make the soundstage slighty open.

 

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post #491 of 827

Hacking the Philips SHE3580


TL;DR version:
Try this with the SHE3580: Trim some Comply S400 tips so that you can get a secure shallow-insertion and still get controlled leakage for reduced bass. Stuff the barrel of the S400 with some foam, which acts as acoustic damper. The result: flatter, more even frequency response. The tradeoff: reduced isolation, reduced sensitivity.
 

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Lengthy, rambling comments about the above work-around. (Click to show)

As far as I know, GoldenEars.net is the only site with measurements for the SHE3580. Those graphs were made before they started to show the raw, measured frequency response. The compensation they use is based on a diffuse field target plus some small-room X curve. If they had used only DF, the treble on the compensated graph would appear lower. GE also uses 1/3-octave averaging, which makes the graphs smoother. If we could see the raw (unaveraged) data, we would see a more uneven curve, probably with taller and narrower peaks.

 

 

If a loudspeaker with any claim to sound quality had this kind of frequency response, I wonder who would recommend it. Apparently, there are different standards for headphones. But that's another story. Here's how GE proposes to fix the response in Accudio. They believe in the missing 6 dB effect, or something similar to it.
 

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The resonances that cause the two tallest peaks are affected by insertion depth. In the first graph, we can see they occur at different frequencies for the left and right channels. The heights of the peaks might be different too. Possibly, these resonances are also affected by manufacturing tolerances and variations between samples. Therefore, there may be good reasons for seeking alternatives to precision digital filtering besides the lack of (or the complexity of setting up) system-wide EQ.

 

I've found that the two peaks (near 5.5 kHz and 8 kHz) can be reduced with absorbent foam ear tips, like Comply T/TX series. The smaller peak near 3 kHz seems largely unaffected. The problem when you do this is that the excessive bass become even more noticeable. I suppose we could increase the air flow through the port by making a small hole through the port cover.

 

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For less destructive bass reduction, I punctured tiny holes through silicone sleeves with a wire-size drill bit. But this makes the peaky treble really stick out, and it sounds harsh. So I tried very shallow insertion with a TX400 tip for an imperfect seal. That somewhat works, but it doesn't sit in place very well. Maybe a smaller size tip will work better.

 

What is really needed is a better way to get controlled leakage from an absorbent foam tip. Enter the Comply S400:
 

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Description here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/643197/which-model-of-comply-tips-do-you-like-best#post_9015905
 

I found them at Target, and they're cheaper than the T/TX series. Comply says their disadvanage is that they are porous and that they don't isolate as well. But that's exactly what's needed here. To get the desired bass response, it still needs shallow insertion. But because it's porous, it can be inserted a little deeper and still have the same amount of leakage. It now feels more secure; this time, shaking my head doesn't dislodge the SHE3580.

If you look closely at the photos, you'll see that the T/TX series has a a shiny glaze over the foam, which is probably there to improve the isolation and not be as absorbent. The S series has the foam exposed, and this might make them better than the T/TX series at flattening those peaks. I haven't made a careful comparison to be able to say for sure.

Another advantage to having the bare foam exposed is that it's easier to trim the S400 with sandpaper or a pair of scissors. Just don't trim too much so that it can still absorb sound. I carved mine to make the ends oval shaped. With this customization, I don't have to pinch the S400 tips before insertion; I just stick and twist. It's really convenient.

So far, so good. From what I can hear from music and test tones, the two tall peaks in the response are almost gone, and the bass has been reduced. But what about the smaller peak near 3 kHz? A diffuse-field target curve has a peak there, but it seems to be overdone in this IEM. Moreover, the researchers who don't agree with DF equalization don't think the response at 3-4 kHz should even be as high as it is in the DF target curve. In fact, the DF-compensated graphs of many earphones and headphones show dips in the response there. Any way you look at it, the 3580's response near 3 kHz is a little too high. Humans are very sensitive to sounds at 3 kHz, so if the error is large enough, we should try to fix it. The first thing I notice if I don't reduce the level here and EQ everything else flat, are the vocals; they sometimes have a harsh glare to them.

So I played around with the right channel of the SHE3580 that I damaged. When I removed the metal mesh covering the nozzle, I could still hear the peaks near 3 kHz, 5.5 kHz, and 8 kHz. I inserted some foam into the nozzle for an acoustic damper in the tube. This seems to reduce the level at 3 kHz, relative to 1 kHz.
 

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But what if we put the damper outside? I stuffed some foam into the barrel of the S400 ear tip, in front of the SHE3580's mesh grill. It took a bit of foam, but it seems to reduce the relative response at 3 kHz. The down side is that it makes the IEM a little less sensitive. I was also afraid that the damper would hurt the response above 10 kHz, which was already low to begin with. So I was somewhat surprised to find that the response there wasn't too adversely affected. I still could hear the high-frequency test tones through the foam.

When I packed enough foam into the tube, I also noticed that I got less bass. Maybe it's because air likes to take the path of least resistance when under pressure; more of it now goes into the side (and into the S400 foam) instead of through the damper and into the ear canal, and this effect is more pronounced at low frequencies. This lets me insert the S400 deeper into the ear and still get the same amount of bass.

Overall, the results are far from perfect, but I very much prefer the resulting sound over the original. It's not for everyone, but maybe you have similar preferences as me. To my ears, it now sounds a lot closer to what Accudio does to the original sound.

I can't really call this a mod since I didn't drill any holes or alter the SHE3580 itself. I just came up with a custom ear tip--one that happens to work well for me. As usual, YMMV.
 

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I'll have to try this with other, similar Philips IEMs: SHE7000, SHE8100, SHE5105 Citiscape Underground. I have a feeling those will be fine, unlike JVC IEMs. Maybe some comparisons are in order?
 

post #492 of 827

So... these should be considerably better than my HF5's then?

post #493 of 827

Just received my pink 3580 (not gay, actually looks good not kidding) 

with comply T200 on

WoW, Nice sound. I'd say the signature is similar to MH1C.

Good Headphone? Def yes.

Better than MH1C? No.

Just my $0.02

post #494 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriv View Post

Another IEM bites the dust at the gym. Here's what the inside of the SHE3580 looks like:I have difficulty listening to this IEM without an equalizer, unless I'm listening at a low volume (in which case, the SHE3850's frequency response acts like a "loudness" setting). Opening it up gives me ideas on how to get a flatter frequency response without electronic EQ. For example, to get less bass, I had thought about drilling a hole through the seal with a small wire-size drill bit. But the opening is very close to the driver, so be careful if you want to do that. I may still do that later.

Like on the HJE120 and the Sony MH1C, I have a work-around that gets a much flatter response. I'm listening to it right now, and I think it's a big improvement (given my preferences). Maybe I'll write about that later.

Thanks very much for the pics and interesting read.
post #495 of 827

I got mine 3595 week ago. This IEM has very nice sound and good bass, but i don't like the stock tips (they are not comfortable for me) and the cable is horrible. The cable is very stiff and very microphonic, it is almost unusable for me on the go. I believe most of the happy owners here are using them at home lying on the bed and trying not to move. Still it is a good IEM for the money and sounds very good (if you are not moving).


Edited by Jakkal - 1/20/13 at 7:05am
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