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Upgraditis Aggh!!- Suggest an upgrade for my Magnepan MMG based system

post #1 of 35
7/7/11 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 

Well...you guys know how it works.  Started a speaker system- now "need" to upgrade.  Current system consists of:

 

Cheap Sony DVD Player--> Harman Kardon AVR525 Receiver-->Adcom GFA 545 (II) Amplifier-->Magnepan MMG Speakers

 

I have moved my headphone setup (consisting mainly of a Marantz CD5001 & an Audio-gd Compass) to the bedroom.  I've played around with using each of these components as a source for the speaker system, and noted that the analog conversion in both the Marantz & the Compass seem quite superior to that of the HK receiver.  I'm also wondering whether the MMG's, which are notoriously power hungry, would benefit from a stronger amp (the Adcom is rated as 150 watts @ 4 ohms).  Seems to me that a new DAC is in order (maybe the ubiquitous Benchmark DAC1 or an Anedio D1), but maybe upgrading the amp would yield better results.  What do you guys think?  Have any specific recommendations?  Let's say budget of $1,000 (or a little more if REALLY justifiable).

 

My thoughts on the current sound:  Really like the MMGs- great sound stage, but feel they can be a little harsh.  Also a bit thin on the bottom end (though I knew this going in.. they only go down to 50Hz)

 

Possibilities:

- New DAC

- New Amp

- Subwoofer

- Room Treatments/Mods to MMGs ??

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post #2 of 35
7/7/11 at 5:27pm
The three gear changes have immediate merit. I've put a B&K 380w@4 on the stats and they do sing. I put a 15" sub in and got schooled on where real bass lives. But if you are feeding that gear with less than stellar material, it wastes your investment. Of the four, I'd go room treatments last.

Forced to choose, I'd do the amp first.
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post #3 of 35
7/7/11 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelsuman View Post

Well...you guys know how it works.  Started a speaker system- now "need" to upgrade.  Current system consists of:

 

Cheap Sony DVD Player--> Harman Kardon AVR525 Receiver-->Adcom GFA 545 (II) Amplifier-->Magnepan MMG Speakers

 

I have moved my headphone setup (consisting mainly of a Marantz CD5001 & an Audio-gd Compass) to the bedroom.  I've played around with using each of these components as a source for the speaker system, and noted that the analog conversion in both the Marantz & the Compass seem quite superior to that of the HK receiver.  I'm also wondering whether the MMG's, which are notoriously power hungry, would benefit from a stronger amp (the Adcom is rated as 150 watts @ 4 ohms).  Seems to me that a new DAC is in order (maybe the ubiquitous Benchmark DAC1 or an Anedio D1), but maybe upgrading the amp would yield better results.  What do you guys think?  Have any specific recommendations?  Let's say budget of $1,000 (or a little more if REALLY justifiable).

 

My thoughts on the current sound:  Really like the MMGs- great sound stage, but feel they can be a little harsh.  Also a bit thin on the bottom end (though I knew this going in.. they only go down to 50Hz)

 

Possibilities:

- New DAC

- New Amp

- Subwoofer

- Room Treatments/Mods to MMGs ??

First thing I'm wondering is where are you going with your system into the future?  Are you thinking of upgrading into a  high end system and if so what is your time frame? are you going to spend all the 1K one one thing or spread it around your system?

 

The DACs you have mentioned are excellent digital sources an there is no substitute for an excellent source but if you spend all your money on one and don't plan on upgrading anything else for some time then I'd spread that money in a more balanced way.  I think the Adcom has  enough juice for those maggies.  What are you using for a pre amp into the Adcom?  The Receiver?  A good preamp is very important. I don't think the receiver can cut it. The cheap CD player? Well you said it.   

 

Now if your going to spend it all on one of those DACs then your going to completely outclass the CD player and the Receiver, somewhat out class the amp.  As far as the maggies go if you build a new system before them in the line and you love the sound of the maggies then you can lastly move up the maggie chain to a better maggie.

 

Room treatment is something you should be doing a little at a time throughout your process because it can be done in intervals.

 

 

 

 

 

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post #4 of 35
7/8/11 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the advice & comments.  As for where my future plans lie...well, I suppose that I'd like to eventually upgrade to a true "Hi-Fi" class speaker setup (in my mind requiring at least $5K-$10K in total investment), but that will be a while- more than 5 years & probably more than 10 years away.

 

In the meantime, I'd like to build a respectable "Mid-Fi" system around the MMGs.  I've heard that the MMGs scale well with higher-end components, though I haven't had an opportunity to confirm this with my own ears.  I'm also not stuck on the notion of spending the entire $1K on a single component.  I realize that balance is important to achieving the best SQ, but would also like to spend money where it matters most.  In that vein, it seems that amp & DAC are very important in the chain, but I'm not sold on the idea that the DVD/CD player is all that important when used only as a transport (at least at this level of "Mid-Fi").  Also, I'll probably be moving to a more computer-based system in the near future (with something like a used mac mini feeding hi-res digital to the DAC), so I'd rather invest in downstream components (everything from DAC & forward).

 

So, in a nutshell, I can see investing an additional ~$2K or so over the next few years to enhance (if not maximize) the performance of the MMGs.

 

A few points/other ideas:

  • I like to buy used gear whenever possible in order to stretch my dollar.
  • Admittedly, I am biased toward the DAC upgrade because I could foreseeably use the DAC in my current headphone setup, making that upgrade somewhat more versatile for me.
  • As mentioned above, I plan (near-term) to use more computer-based source material such as 24/96, so I'd rather not invest in a player upgrade
  • Amps: Should I consider bi-amping or even monoblocks, given my budget?
  • Would a used high-current tube amp be a worthwhile upgrade?
  • What about a tube pre-amp?
  • An idea: $350 Schiit Bifrost DAC (which is upgradeable) along with a ~$500 DIY Bottlehead Foreplay III tube pre-amp kit (also upgradeable), then hold out for a ~$1,000 amp upgrade sometime in the next few years

Edited by thelsuman - 7/8/11 at 1:12pm
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post #5 of 35
7/18/11 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 


^^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelsuman View Post

Thanks for the advice & comments.  As for where my future plans lie...well, I suppose that I'd like to eventually upgrade to a true "Hi-Fi" class speaker setup (in my mind requiring at least $5K-$10K in total investment), but that will be a while- more than 5 years & probably more than 10 years away.

 

In the meantime, I'd like to build a respectable "Mid-Fi" system around the MMGs.  I've heard that the MMGs scale well with higher-end components, though I haven't had an opportunity to confirm this with my own ears.  I'm also not stuck on the notion of spending the entire $1K on a single component.  I realize that balance is important to achieving the best SQ, but would also like to spend money where it matters most.  In that vein, it seems that amp & DAC are very important in the chain, but I'm not sold on the idea that the DVD/CD player is all that important when used only as a transport (at least at this level of "Mid-Fi").  Also, I'll probably be moving to a more computer-based system in the near future (with something like a used mac mini feeding hi-res digital to the DAC), so I'd rather invest in downstream components (everything from DAC & forward).

 

So, in a nutshell, I can see investing an additional ~$2K or so over the next few years to enhance (if not maximize) the performance of the MMGs.

 

A few points/other ideas:

  • I like to buy used gear whenever possible in order to stretch my dollar.
  • Admittedly, I am biased toward the DAC upgrade because I could foreseeably use the DAC in my current headphone setup, making that upgrade somewhat more versatile for me.
  • As mentioned above, I plan (near-term) to use more computer-based source material such as 24/96, so I'd rather not invest in a player upgrade
  • Amps: Should I consider bi-amping or even monoblocks, given my budget?
  • Would a used high-current tube amp be a worthwhile upgrade?
  • What about a tube pre-amp?
  • An idea: $350 Schiit Bifrost DAC (which is upgradeable) along with a ~$500 DIY Bottlehead Foreplay III tube pre-amp kit (also upgradeable), then hold out for a ~$1,000 amp upgrade sometime in the next few years


 

Reply
post #6 of 35
7/18/11 at 7:58pm

If your thinking about the bitfrost why not also try the Lyr.  I believe I emailed Schiit once and they told me the Lyr could be used as a headphone amp and a preamp.  You could get the Bitfrost and listen for a while until your ready to make another move

Reply
post #7 of 35
7/18/11 at 8:40pm

Keep the MMG's as they certainly do scale well with better gear but if you do so the first component I would add is a HQ sub (sealed type with 500 W plate amp) or a pair of subs (true stereo operation). The HK simply does not have the oomph to properly drive the MMG panels (which is why the highs are a little harsh). If you can relieve the HK of the bass duties (routing those to the sub or subs) that opens up some headroom for the overtaxed HK amp section. Maggies are very demanding on amps needing loads of current in order to sound their best. A decent amp can be had in the 150W RMS range as long as it's able to supply 30-40 amps of current into 4 ohms (with complete stability). As Happy Camper has discovered (and I couldn't agree more with him) that last octave from 40 to 20 hz rests the heart and soul of the musical piece (whether that be classical which can reach into the low 20's depending on what percussion is used or modern electrified music needing it's bottom end to sound "right"). I know a lot of purists shy away from subs with stat/planar panels but a properly setup sub EQ'd to the room is absolutely seamless with the main L/R speakers. There is no other way to get that bass unless you spend a bundle on true full range planar/stats/ribbons. Room size is also a consideration...if the room is somewhat small then the MMG's and one sub would load it sufficiently (provided you EQ the sub response regardless of room size).

 

Once you have the speakers properly setup and giving honest to goodness 20/23 hz - 20 khz response you can now evaluate the source/amp/preamp sections more closely. A good long term goal would be to go the separates route or invest in a HQ integrated amp that has preamp outputs to run to the subs and any external amp you might want to use down the road...(bi-amp a set of MG 1.7 QR's for example). When I started out (35+ years ago) I had mediocre gear but proceed to upgrade as I went along (and could afford to offset cost of new gear by selling the old stuff). It took me a number of years to arrive at the system I now have so don't be discouraged by a long term process. Many of us here (and elsewhere I'm willing to bet) have had to go this route. The journey is part of the fun...well for me anyway tongue_smile.gif

 

I do believe in the "source is king" mantra ...the old adage "garbage in garbage out" is as to the point IMO as it gets. No further explanation necessary. Preamp quality is second to source quality IMO...with amp quality (as long as it's setup to handle the specific needs of Maggie panels) the last piece of the puzzle to upgrade. I own both Maggie and Eminent Tech planar mags. Odyssey Amps make some really good Maggie centric gear.....any really HQ amp will likely put the HK to shame however. A receiver only has so much real estate in the chassis with which to build a stout PSU/output transistors section.

 

I hope that helped a little....the MMG's are darn good little panels made even better with an equally speedy sub.

 

Peete.

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post #8 of 35
7/19/11 at 11:29am

 

 

Go to AudioAsylum message board and look for "Planar Asylum", the maggieheads tend to live there.

 

Suggestions:

 

a) the biggest upgrade for the MMG's are bigger maggies.  Can you spring for that? On Audiogon, you could probably get used 1.6's for not more than $1000.  If you do, get some made in the last 5 years, as the factory changed the glue to one which reduces/eliminates a common age-related failure mode of older versions.  With serial numbers you can call the factory and ask.

 

b) Both the MMG's and 1.6's of that era *need* some tweeter attenuation.  When I had 1.6's I used a 1.5 ohm resistor in series with an inductor (go to the PlanarAsylum and search for 'choke tweak').  The QR ribbon of that era is tuned too hot in my (and many other's opinion). I guess they probably balanced it for use in the most damped room possible and then assumed most other people would use some resistors, but people are often needlessly afraid to change.

 

c) I had the same Adcom amp, and then moved to a PS Audio Trio C-100 integrated (used, ~$800).  It's excellent and despite its size it has loads of power and was clearer than the Adcom. The preamp section is minimal but insanely clean (NO noise). I don't think the Adcom's power is currently the limitation with MMGs---the limitation in bass and output is in the speaker physics. 

 

d) Agree with the sealed subs.  I never had MMG's but with both 1.6's and 3.6's I found it substantially better to run the maggies full range and use the subs with a low crossover frequency (< 40Hz).  (I only have 1 but 2 would definitely be better----since I listen to 97%+ classical the second didn't seem quite so pressing).

 

e) Try also Maggie Rear Wave attenuators (~$75 on ebay).  Actually I have some white ones I could sell if I can find an appropriate shipping tube! (they aren't used for 3.6's which I have now).

 


In my opinion, spending $20 on various resistor values will give you more immediately obvious improvement than changing amplification.

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post #9 of 35
7/19/11 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbkennel View Post

 

 

Go to AudioAsylum message board and look for "Planar Asylum", the maggieheads tend to live there.

 

Suggestions:

 

a) the biggest upgrade for the MMG's are bigger maggies.  Can you spring for that? On Audiogon, you could probably get used 1.6's for not more than $1000.  If you do, get some made in the last 5 years, as the factory changed the glue to one which reduces/eliminates a common age-related failure mode of older versions.  With serial numbers you can call the factory and ask.

 

b) Both the MMG's and 1.6's of that era *need* some tweeter attenuation.  When I had 1.6's I used a 1.5 ohm resistor in series with an inductor (go to the PlanarAsylum and search for 'choke tweak').  The QR ribbon of that era is tuned too hot in my (and many other's opinion). I guess they probably balanced it for use in the most damped room possible and then assumed most other people would use some resistors, but people are often needlessly afraid to change.

 

c) I had the same Adcom amp, and then moved to a PS Audio Trio C-100 integrated (used, ~$800).  It's excellent and despite its size it has loads of power and was clearer than the Adcom. The preamp section is minimal but insanely clean (NO noise). I don't think the Adcom's power is currently the limitation with MMGs---the limitation in bass and output is in the speaker physics. 

 

d) Agree with the sealed subs.  I never had MMG's but with both 1.6's and 3.6's I found it substantially better to run the maggies full range and use the subs with a low crossover frequency (< 40Hz).  (I only have 1 but 2 would definitely be better----since I listen to 97%+ classical the second didn't seem quite so pressing).

 

e) Try also Maggie Rear Wave attenuators (~$75 on ebay).  Actually I have some white ones I could sell if I can find an appropriate shipping tube! (they aren't used for 3.6's which I have now).

 


In my opinion, spending $20 on various resistor values will give you more immediately obvious improvement than changing amplification.

 

When I had the larger maggies I had a tendency to abuse them.  Not on purpose but because I would often play them louder, way louder than I should have.  I had arced the panels endlessly. Replaced many a tweeter and so on.  For this reason I would recommend not buying maggies that are used, because of fools like myself.  If there was one thing in the chain I would buy absolutely new it would be the maggies.

 

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post #10 of 35
7/20/11 at 12:38am
What you really need is a turntable.

evil_smiley.gif

very_evil_smiley.gif

For $1,000, I'd spend about $500 on a used Rega Planar 3/P3. Put a Michell Tecnoweight on the arm and add a Groovetracer subplatter. Maybe a Riggle VTA adjuster. That would give you a very capable turntable. Add something like a NAD PP2 phonostage and maybe one of the Rega carts (they make installation and alignment painless).

And I'm sure you'll find other ways to upgrade your vinyl rig. evil_smiley.gif

No worries, vinyl is a happy addiction. smily_headphones1.gif

Otherwise, you could upgrade to Maggie 1.6 speakers and sell the MMGs. Or maybe you could turn masochistic and find a pair of Quad ESLs. biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 35
7/20/11 at 3:27pm
Thread Starter 


Oh, Erik, you devil you!

 

Funny, since lately I've given some serious thought to going the full analog route & the Rega P3 was at the top of my list for a starter TT.  However, at least for now, I've decided to stick with digital due to the convenience factor (and because I have small children who might wreak havoc on that delicate vinyl).

 

Still....it IS very tempting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

What you really need is a turntable.

evil_smiley.gif

very_evil_smiley.gif

For $1,000, I'd spend about $500 on a used Rega Planar 3/P3. Put a Michell Tecnoweight on the arm and add a Groovetracer subplatter. Maybe a Riggle VTA adjuster. That would give you a very capable turntable. Add something like a NAD PP2 phonostage and maybe one of the Rega carts (they make installation and alignment painless).

And I'm sure you'll find other ways to upgrade your vinyl rig. evil_smiley.gif

No worries, vinyl is a happy addiction. smily_headphones1.gif

Otherwise, you could upgrade to Maggie 1.6 speakers and sell the MMGs. Or maybe you could turn masochistic and find a pair of Quad ESLs. biggrin.gif


 

Reply
post #12 of 35
7/20/11 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I may have been unclear, but I'm actually amping the MMGs with a 150 wpc Adcom GFA-545 II (the HK receiver only serves pre-amp duty).  Otherwise, I'll have to give serious consideration to adding a sub soon.  I have been somewhat intimidated by the prospect of matching a sub to the planars though (based upon what I've read about difficulties others have exxperienced), but since its a small room, a smallish sealed sub might suffice.

 

I'm also assuming that you're recommending the powered variety (?) since I don't think the HK can drive a sub (EDIT: I see you recommend a 500w plate amp sealed sub).


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete View Post

Keep the MMG's as they certainly do scale well with better gear but if you do so the first component I would add is a HQ sub (sealed type with 500 W plate amp) or a pair of subs (true stereo operation). The HK simply does not have the oomph to properly drive the MMG panels (which is why the highs are a little harsh). If you can relieve the HK of the bass duties (routing those to the sub or subs) that opens up some headroom for the overtaxed HK amp section. Maggies are very demanding on amps needing loads of current in order to sound their best. A decent amp can be had in the 150W RMS range as long as it's able to supply 30-40 amps of current into 4 ohms (with complete stability). As Happy Camper has discovered (and I couldn't agree more with him) that last octave from 40 to 20 hz rests the heart and soul of the musical piece (whether that be classical which can reach into the low 20's depending on what percussion is used or modern electrified music needing it's bottom end to sound "right"). I know a lot of purists shy away from subs with stat/planar panels but a properly setup sub EQ'd to the room is absolutely seamless with the main L/R speakers. There is no other way to get that bass unless you spend a bundle on true full range planar/stats/ribbons. Room size is also a consideration...if the room is somewhat small then the MMG's and one sub would load it sufficiently (provided you EQ the sub response regardless of room size).

 

Once you have the speakers properly setup and giving honest to goodness 20/23 hz - 20 khz response you can now evaluate the source/amp/preamp sections more closely. A good long term goal would be to go the separates route or invest in a HQ integrated amp that has preamp outputs to run to the subs and any external amp you might want to use down the road...(bi-amp a set of MG 1.7 QR's for example). When I started out (35+ years ago) I had mediocre gear but proceed to upgrade as I went along (and could afford to offset cost of new gear by selling the old stuff). It took me a number of years to arrive at the system I now have so don't be discouraged by a long term process. Many of us here (and elsewhere I'm willing to bet) have had to go this route. The journey is part of the fun...well for me anyway tongue_smile.gif

 

I do believe in the "source is king" mantra ...the old adage "garbage in garbage out" is as to the point IMO as it gets. No further explanation necessary. Preamp quality is second to source quality IMO...with amp quality (as long as it's setup to handle the specific needs of Maggie panels) the last piece of the puzzle to upgrade. I own both Maggie and Eminent Tech planar mags. Odyssey Amps make some really good Maggie centric gear.....any really HQ amp will likely put the HK to shame however. A receiver only has so much real estate in the chassis with which to build a stout PSU/output transistors section.

 

I hope that helped a little....the MMG's are darn good little panels made even better with an equally speedy sub.

 

Peete.



 


Edited by thelsuman - 7/21/11 at 9:59am
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post #13 of 35
7/21/11 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorAnt View Post

If your thinking about the bitfrost why not also try the Lyr.  I believe I emailed Schiit once and they told me the Lyr could be used as a headphone amp and a preamp.  You could get the Bitfrost and listen for a while until your ready to make another move

 

Yeah- I've considered this since that Lyr would be so much fun to try with headphones.  However, I read the following review in which they generally praised the Lyr, but were somewhat underwhelmed by its pre-amp capabilities:

 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/12.html


 

 

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post #14 of 35
7/25/11 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 

Mulling over Pete's and Happy Camper's recommendation of adding a subwoofer first.  I've noticed that there are a few subwoofer kits over at Parts Express.  Does anyone have experience with any of this sealed sub kits?  something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-742

 

Also, my only experience with subwoofers was in a Home Theater environment were the connection was made through a LFE input.  Does anyone have thoughts as to the preferred connection method (LFE vs line-level).

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post #15 of 35
7/25/11 at 10:23am
If you want a musical sub, go with a smaller driver with multiple drivers. Say 3-8" or 2-10" instead of a larger driver. My mistake was putting 15" sub into a task of matching panels. I have accepted the sub for HT duty and live with the panels/10" woofer.
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