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Cowon BBE, BBE+ good sound quality. Is it a Myth? - Page 5

post #61 of 88
Thread Starter 

 

This combo (clip+ and M2) is really seductive. I usually skip songs which I don't want to listen at that moment but till now I didn't do even once in this combo

 

May be that's what people are terming M2's sound quality as 'Musical'

 

I am still wondering how come they are achieving this 'Musical' nature when some big giants can't

post #62 of 88

I have a Cowon J3 and a D3 and they both sound fantastic. I use BBE (currently the ViVA 2 preset on the D3) and to say it makes the sound 'harsher' or 'thinner' seems to be grabbed out of thin air. If anything it does the absolute opposite.

 

It adds a certain 'sparkle' to the sound and yes, it does boost the higher and lower frequencies (in the perception of my untrained ears), but the BBE web site claims the BBE effect does other things as well, such as phase alignment. It's a subtle refinement of the sound and works G-R-E-A-T for electronic music especially.

 

On one point this thread seems curiously uneducated - and that is the fact that the 'BBE' in JetAudio sounds NOWHERE NEAR as good as the BBE in the players. Seriously, the difference is nothing short of monstrous. I refuse to believe it's the same technology. Where the players add presence and musicality to the sound (I know I'm vague but I don't know how else to describe it wink_face.gif), JetAudio simply seems to create an enormous suck-out in the mid-range and boosted upper treble. The BBE ViVA effect in JetAudio is better. I haven't compared it directly to the presets on the players but enabling it does seem to widen the sound field in an almost eerie way.

 

If you want BBE on your computer, I suggest you buy their software as a DSP plugin - something I'm going to do later today, as a matter of fact. beyersmile.png I will try using it with my media player software (maybe it even works with JetAudio?) and I'm convinced it will sound phenomenal.

post #63 of 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcalion View Post

I have a Cowon J3 and a D3 and they both sound fantastic. I use BBE (currently the ViVA 2 preset on the D3) and to say it makes the sound 'harsher' or 'thinner' seems to be grabbed out of thin air. If anything it does the absolute opposite.


I'd  say it depends of the headphone. If you have headphone already with sharp treble, the BBE  can be unbearable. One reason I  think it's a bad idea to use the presets, instead of adjusting by ear.

 

Quote:


 

If you want BBE on your computer, I suggest you buy their software as a DSP plugin - something I'm going to do later today, as a matter of fact. beyersmile.png I will try using it with my media player software (maybe it even works with JetAudio?) and I'm convinced it will sound phenomenal.

I  tried the D82 vst , and although it might seems interesting at first, I  found this just mess up my Eq.
The BBE  process is a bit interesting,  as it it expands the dynamic of the highs, but at the same time boost the the high , which is less desirable. The low process , makes the bass a bit muddy , more on "your face" and fatiguing.  I  tried to put tiny amount of low process on dsp chain, and each time I've been tempted to remove it.   I also tried the H82 vst, I  think it removes some frequencies around a particular one, making it "clearer" that it might seem, but this comes at a loss of details.
I  liked a bit the antress modern exciter VST, for bass, free..

post #64 of 88

You seem very knowledgeable. I have read about the Exciter as well, but notably SOS claimed the Exciter was more in-your-face while BBE was the more refined option. beyersmile.png

I find this sort of 'enhancers' really fascinating, and while they may not be desirable in a purist high-end system, they can make a lower-end one sound better. Since they produce such an instant 'wow'-effect, and in the case of BBE, a subtle and rather refined one at that, even audiophiles may find them interesting. I know I do.

 

Bottom line is, BBE on Cowon players is terrific and very refined-sounding, and while it may not be for everyone, I think most people will try it and be positively surprised. And get addicted quickly.

 

At the very least, there certainly isn't any comparison to similar technologies on other players (*cough* SRS *cough* DSEE), which are basically just pointless gimmicks that no one uses.

post #65 of 88

I've asked this somewhere else but I might get a quicker response here. Is the Mach3bass setting of the cowon adjustable like the Digizoid ZO2 is? And also if anyone has tried the beats audio enhancement on cell phones, can the mach3bass make your earphones vibrate like that does?

post #66 of 88

Mach3bass is adjustable in 10 increments. It does a very good job of boosting the low frequencies without burying the rest of the spectrum. Many people it is second only to the ZO.

 

The beats audio enhancement sounds terrible by comparison to the above two alternatives. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayleighSilvers View Post

I've asked this somewhere else but I might get a quicker response here. Is the Mach3bass setting of the cowon adjustable like the Digizoid ZO2 is? And also if anyone has tried the beats audio enhancement on cell phones, can the mach3bass make your earphones vibrate like that does?



 

post #67 of 88

JetEffect is indeed based on technology that has been developed for Exciters by BBE. Exciters have long been used in recording studios and live venues to spice up the sound. Generally speaking, they make stuff sound subjectively better at the expense of increased noise. They achieve all this by all-pass filtering, frequency compensated gain adjustment and frequency compensated domain delay, amongst other methods.

 

I'd like to disagree that BBE or other exciters (the DigiZoid ZO is an analog exciter) are the more "low-end" alternative to what high-end systems use (tube amps and other esoteric equipment). Tube amps also degrade the signal in a subjectively pleasing way; however, they do it in an unpredictable and often poorly documented way, whereas the user has total control over what an exciter does. In my humble opinion, this is a way more robust solution, no matter what golden-eared audiophiles say about esoteric equipment.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarcalion View Post

You seem very knowledgeable. I have read about the Exciter as well, but notably SOS claimed the Exciter was more in-your-face while BBE was the more refined option. beyersmile.png

I find this sort of 'enhancers' really fascinating, and while they may not be desirable in a purist high-end system, they can make a lower-end one sound better. Since they produce such an instant 'wow'-effect, and in the case of BBE, a subtle and rather refined one at that, even audiophiles may find them interesting. I know I do.

 

Bottom line is, BBE on Cowon players is terrific and very refined-sounding, and while it may not be for everyone, I think most people will try it and be positively surprised. And get addicted quickly.

 

At the very least, there certainly isn't any comparison to similar technologies on other players (*cough* SRS *cough* DSEE), which are basically just pointless gimmicks that no one uses.



 


Edited by jupitreas - 2/10/12 at 3:40am
post #68 of 88
tbh, I don't like BBE+. It seems to increase bass (around 60hz) and treble and sounds boomy and harsh. Mach3bass is a bit more useful to me as I don't hear an increase in the treble that makes my IEMs mostly sound unbearably harsh (and consequently dipping the mids that I try to adjust back by increasing the volume and wincing in displeasure. EDIT: or maybe both do. I'm confused now frown.gif ). m3b is almost enough for some bass-neutral IEMs to make them a bit more fun, but generally if the impact is not there, you're a bit screwed.

There are FR chart effects of both on the guy's site how measured the D2+/D2 and some other cowon players... forgot his handle. (dftk?)

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/index.php?dir=&search=bbe&search_mode=f

you can see YMMV depending on player, firmware version and effect version (bbe, bbe+, bbe viva, etc).

How this compares to vanilla EQ after adjusting the bands - i'm not sure. (you can vary the band width and go up down to around 80hz on d2+ 3.14)

The other thing is when you adjust bass up, it seems like the player does it by adjusting everything else down. Or maybe it's my imagination. (you can actually hear a vol jump when you go from 0 to 1 for m3b).
Edited by svyr - 2/10/12 at 4:15am
post #69 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupitreas View Post

Mach3bass is adjustable in 10 increments. It does a very good job of boosting the low frequencies without burying the rest of the spectrum. Many people it is second only to the ZO.

 

The beats audio enhancement sounds terrible by comparison to the above two alternatives. 
 



 



I'm completely anti-beats, and I didn't get to spend much time with it but to be fair the beats enhancement sounded really nice to my ears. Like I said it provided earphone shaking levels of bass but didn't sound distorted. It was really fun to listen to.

post #70 of 88

I just installed the BBE Sonic Maximixer D82 plugin for Foobar and it sounds quite good actually. The sound is more refined and thick. There is a on and off button for you a/b instantly, and i can tell you without the BBE, sound is more thin and hollow. Advantage is that there is more Treble without the BBE. With it turned it, it seems as if everything is smoothed out completely making the sound really calm and smooth. I guess i can toggle back and forth for different situations.

 

Overall the plugin is not bad. You will hear a night and day difference with lower bitrate songs. Heard the most difference with my MP3 @ 320k, 224K etc... makes it sound closer to flacs. On the other hand, FLACs 16 bit and 24 bit are less prone to changes from the BBE, not much difference to be heard which is expected.

 

Guess i like my music coloured haha.. portable with J3 and now desktop with BBE.basshead.gif

 

post #71 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbinkes View Post

So I read your post and looked over at my Senn HD 202 and Cowon j3 and decided to test out what you did and see if there was a difference. I plugged the headphones into my computer and used jetaudio to play a song and it sounded quite ugly in comparison to my j3. I know you bought the clip already I just wanted you to know that the wolfson chip does make a big difference.



The hardware in the J3 is different then the hardware in your soundcard. So even if the BBE routines JetAudio uses is identical to the routines the J3 uses, the difference in the hardware can make a big difference. Most onboard sound cards are made with really cheap (poor) hardware.

 

post #72 of 88

yeah, I'm using an onboard soundcard, and find the bbe  vst useful now.

That wasn't the case with the xonar xtx.

BBE might help with a poor source.

 

About the fact that BBE  sound "immediately better", don't forget that it  boost volume, and louder is always perceived as better.

post #73 of 88
Thread Starter 

I am still wondering which is the star among the two (Clip+ and Brainwavz M2) to make it more engaging, involving, seductive.....I don't have any other good source

 

I have ordered FIIO E17 and now I can find it. If M2 is the hero then I strongly believe that Cowon should be better than Clip+

 

 

post #74 of 88

Just wanted to add that I am all about neutral sounding headphones/earphones.  Very fast and detailed.  It especially suits one of my favorite genres of music:  uplifting trance.  So, I fell in love with TF10 IEMs and then discovered the Beyerdynamic DT880 (250ohm).  I say "one of my" because the DT880 sound so good that I've started listening to old favorites of mine including movie soundtrack/scores.  It was interesting to find out that uplifting trance is said to have been influenced by film music and one of my favorite trance producers (Andy Blueman) quit trance to start producing movie score music--his other passion. 

 

I have really fallen in love with the Wolfson DAC sound--first with Galaxy S smartphones + Voodoo sound control..........I was STUNNED!!   Of course, all of you know the J3 has a Wolfson in it. 

 

Then I became a little more purist and went for THE best iPod there is--the 5/5.5gen which also has the best Wolfson DACs in them.  Definitely more neutral and cold sounding than the Galaxy S + Voodoo sound....I actually missed the warmer welcoming sound and so I sold it and got another Galaxy S phone/rooted/voodoo'd it.  Was in love once again.........got curious about the Cowon J3 and snagged one off the head-fi classifieds recently.......and I'm AS PLEASED as can be :D 

 

I've paired it with a Fiio E17, which is very neutral I might add--didn't add any warmth to the iPod 5.5gen and don't feel like it adds warmth to the Cowon/Galaxy.  It's everything I would want in an AMP/DAC (I guess until I upgrade to maybe 600ohm DT880 or something better like T1 in the far far off future).  I might also add that it adds bass AMAZINGLY (super tight and articulate) just like I've read reviews of the Digizoid Zo2.  That said, I feel like I don't NEED the E17 as much as I did with my other sources including the iPod 5.5gen.  I have iPad2, PSP, had the PS Vita (both Wolfson DACs), and Sony nwz-s544....and several models of the Galaxy S phone (Fascinate, Epic, Vibrant, Nexus S)

 

Anyway, I've started playing around with the BBE and I don't know how to adjust the settings individually yet--via equalizer once I've set the BBE effect?  (I haven't tried yet) and I like a few of the BBE/VIVA settings so far.  I could just as easily listen to the J3 flat, but some of the settings are more fun and enjoyable.  I guess that's why I've started looking into getting a closed headphone that's very fast/detailed but not necessarily completely neutral.  I've put the popular Cheetah UI on the J3 and it looks awesome and the battery life seems everlasting like I had read. 

 

The J3 is a real keeper and I'm not tempted to go back to iPod 5.5gen in the least.  I'm a little curious about the iMod, however.  I like my Galaxy S phone almost as much as the J3, though--  Poweramp interface is really splendid, plus it has crossfading, and some other features as well as Android/Wifi/ability to download mp3s directly to device/etc....... I really missed the touch interface/easy search functions in my rockboxed iPod 5.5, as well.   

 

I'll probably end up selling one of them--most likely the Galaxy S, because those are a dime a dozen on Craigslist.  I even got the OEM extended battery which lasts for a couple days and Dock which has USB line out sound... 

 

I think it's most important to keep in mind like some other posters have pointed out--the headphones you use might determine how well you like the J3.  I can't be happier with the neutral cans + J3 pairing.  To think I was going to drop $250 on the Sony Z1040 without knowing that it doesn't have an expandable memory slot......!!!!!! outrageous.  There's absolutely no way I'll be dropping $500-800 on a Z1070 or iBasso DX100 now that I've heard the J3.  I guess ignorance is bliss :) 

 

I'd like to also mention that listening to my favorite trance tunes (such as the ones on the first link of my signature) and movie scores (2nd link in sig) is a joyous experience 8-)


Edited by hyogen - 5/2/12 at 7:07am
post #75 of 88
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipes View Post

I just installed the BBE Sonic Maximixer D82 plugin for Foobar and it sounds quite good actually. The sound is more refined and thick. There is a on and off button for you a/b instantly, and i can tell you without the BBE, sound is more thin and hollow. Advantage is that there is more Treble without the BBE. With it turned it, it seems as if everything is smoothed out completely making the sound really calm and smooth. I guess i can toggle back and forth for different situations.

 

Overall the plugin is not bad. You will hear a night and day difference with lower bitrate songs. Heard the most difference with my MP3 @ 320k, 224K etc... makes it sound closer to flacs. On the other hand, FLACs 16 bit and 24 bit are less prone to changes from the BBE, not much difference to be heard which is expected.

 

Guess i like my music coloured haha.. portable with J3 and now desktop with BBE.basshead.gif

 

 

Could you please share the link where I can download BBE Sonic Maximizer plugin? Is it a free or paid version?  I really want to try this after looking at your comments

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