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Bookshelves speaker to improve imaging?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

My set up is as follows:

 

Source: Marantz SA7001

Amp: Carver AV-405 (100W into 8 ohms)

Speaker: Jamo 507 floor stander (100W 8 ohms)

 

I am generally pleased with my setup, details and frequency balance are fine, however I don't get good imaging, I did quite a bit of experiment with speaker placement, but I am still getting of a wall of sound.

 

Room size is about 18'x24', however from the listening couch to the wall (where the speaker is) is only about 8'. Between the back wall and the listening couch is about 13'. I can push the speaker out of the wall for about 2', there are with TV and stuffs in between the speakers. The distance between the speakers are about 6', the distance between me and the speakers are a bit shorter than that. Walls, floors and ceiling are concrete, fairly heavily furnished.

 

Now I am not sure if:

 

- I have too much expectation on my system

- I need to get a carpet on the floor between me and the speakers

- I should place the current speakers closer together (this requires rather major furniture movements)

- The floorstanders are too large for the listening distance

- Switching to a pair of bookshelves speakers will help in the current speaker placement

- I need to get a pair of bookshelves speakers and place them closer to each other at the same time

 

Any advise will be appreciated.


Edited by Navyblue - 7/2/11 at 2:15pm
post #2 of 18
Try some Magnepans.
post #3 of 18

Go to the Cardas web site and look up the formula for calculating speaker placement (which takes into account your room dimensions). Going to bookshelves is not a good idea (for the size of your room) unless you listen at very modest volume levels. Another issue is room furnishing placement (first reflection points)...listening chair position etc...the Cardas formula will get you close to a ideal placement but you need to experiment a little with your room (which includes arrangement of furniture etc)...try to balance L/R sides of the room if you can....do not place anything large in between the speakers or near the side walls close to the speakers  (which will effect imaging of the speakers themselves). Toe in the speakers towards your calculated sweet spot, listening position which is derived from the Cardas measurements.

 

2 simple rules to follow with speaker placement...keep them away from side walls and back walls (unless they are designed for boundary reinforcement like Klipsch or Alison). Have a clear uncluttered pathway (which includes symmetric furniture placement if possible) between your L/R speakers and your listening position (sweet spot). Incremental changes in forward/backward placement as well as toe in can have dramatic effect so make small changes (once the rough placement has been calculated using the Cardas formula) to dial in your system ....you should notice a rather large improvement once you have the placement correct in your room.

 

Peete.

 

 


Edited by Pricklely Peete - 7/2/11 at 9:17pm
post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

Try some Magnepans.


I have not heard of them before, but from reviews, they seem to sound like AKG Kx01? Btw, you probably don't remember, I ended up having the K501 because of your advice. smile.gif

 

However those looks pretty fragile to me, are they? It looks like one could easily punch a hole through those. I don't have kids yet, but I probably will. So I am not sure they are for me now. But it looks like something that I eventually want to have someday.

 

post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete View Post

Go to the Cardas web site and look up the formula for calculating speaker placement (which takes into account your room dimensions). Going to bookshelves is not a good idea (for the size of your room) unless you listen at very modest volume levels. Another issue is room furnishing placement (first reflection points)...listening chair position etc...the Cardas formula will get you close to a ideal placement but you need to experiment a little with your room (which includes arrangement of furniture etc)...try to balance L/R sides of the room if you can....do not place anything large in between the speakers or near the side walls close to the speakers  (which will effect imaging of the speakers themselves). Toe in the speakers towards your calculated sweet spot, listening position which is derived from the Cardas measurements.

 

2 simple rules to follow with speaker placement...keep them away from side walls and back walls (unless they are designed for boundary reinforcement like Klipsch or Alison). Have a clear uncluttered pathway (which includes symmetric furniture placement if possible) between your L/R speakers and your listening position (sweet spot). Incremental changes in forward/backward placement as well as toe in can have dramatic effect so make small changes (once the rough placement has been calculated using the Cardas formula) to dial in your system ....you should notice a rather large improvement once you have the placement correct in your room.

 

Peete.

 

 


Although the room is not really small, I am severely limited by the listening distance. From the listening position to the wall is about 8', if I move the speaker out of the wall for 2' and the speaker is 1' thick, there isn't really much room left. I am not sure if this is the problem and I am just too close to the floorstanders.

 

There are also TV stuffs in between the speakers. Speakers placement are also not symmetrical to the room, the right speaker is closer to the right wall than the left speaker to the left wall. To top it off concrete floors and walls are reflective. The speaker placement and the room does leave a lot to be desired, and there is nothing can be done about those. I am hoping that I can get away with something that is less dependent on room acoustic.

 

However what I am not sure is if bookshelves would improve the sound at all. This Jamo 507 that I have look just like a bookshelf if you disregard the woofer compartment at the bottom. So basically I'm afraid all I do is to forgo the low end producing woofer which do nothing to eliminate the imaging problem.

post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

Try some Magnepans.


He's right. I currently have a set of Magnepan MC-1's with a pair of 15" open baffle subs. There are moments, listening to well-recorded material, when elements of the music seem to hover out in the room with us.

 

post #7 of 18
smily_headphones1.gif

The Maggies aren't that fragile and have grills over the diaphragms. It'd be easier to knock them over than punch a hole. Unless tiny hands decide to put a pencil or similar through them. Still, I wouldn't be too concerned. Little fingers are just as likely to push in cone caps. If you're truly concerned, see if you can't hunt down some old ESS AMTs. The woofers need upgrading (a simple project), but they have a big boxy dustcover that drops over everything.

My parents have my AMT-1s and three grandkids over frequently. They're still in great shape.

But I'd recommend some kind of dipole. You'll get the imaging you want. Yes, the tonality and transparency can be a lot like an AKG, but you'll get a truly 3D soundstage. You'll be surprised when you hear them. When people hear my dipoles the first time they often look a little disconcerted and ask where the music is coming from.

I run Quad ESL-63s, but don't recommend them around kids. Quads can be temperamental and they run very high voltage. Something like 5.25kV on the stators. Touch both stators at the same time and you've got a problem.

One project you might be interested in is a Linkwitz Pluto. The drivers are about $200 and the cabinets are PVC pipe, which is easy to handle and cheap to have cut to length. You can DIY them for about $500. They're more or less omnipoles and you'll get a nice soundstage. One bonus is that they have built-in amps. Just add a nice preamp and you're done.
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 

Thanks all. :)

 

If they've got grills on them I guess it isn't bad.

 

I have question about their placement though.

 

- How near apart can they be at minimum?

- How near can I listen to them at minimum?

- How far from the back wall do they have to be?

 

It seems that the dipoles are more directional and less dependent on room acoustic? If so may be that's why they image so well?

post #9 of 18

have you tried toeing them in slightly?

post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Yes they are toed in, I tried everything from toeing out to toeing in and ended up them basically pointing at me.
post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 

I bought some long speaker cables so that I can move the speakers in greater degree. I moved the hifi stack. I bought floor rugs. I bought stuffs to cover up the glass windows. For the money I could have bought myself a half decent pair of bookshelves speaker. biggrin.gif I spent the last 2 evenings buying and moving stuffs and now my living room is a war zone.

 

I also noticed something else, the singer "appears" at my left even though the speakers' distance were equal to me, I am not sure if there are channel imbalance in my system, or if it is the room, or my right ear isn't working so well.

 

I also notice that the floor rugs seems to make the singer appear lower.

 

In short I am still not getting it and will keep trying.

post #12 of 18

You need the speakers to be both farther apart and further from your sitting position. 

 

So yes, if that is the only placement for that room, smaller speakers, omni pole or bookshelf would work better within those restrictions.

post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 

The floorstanders that I have look just like bookshelf speakers, except that they are taller (but just as narrow) and have woofers hidden inside at the bottom. The tweeter and midrange drivers and the compartment housing them are just like any other bookshelf speaker. My question is, how would it bed any different by switching to bookshelf speakers?

if there will indeed be difference, what is the recommended listening distance for bookshelf speakers? (and floorstanders for that matter)

Thanks. :)


Edited by Navyblue - 7/6/11 at 8:04pm
post #14 of 18

grab some cf-70s from vanns for 50% off and end the life of those tiny things. http://www.vanns.com/shop/promo click add to cart for discount.

post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

smily_headphones1.gif

The Maggies aren't that fragile and have grills over the diaphragms. It'd be easier to knock them over than punch a hole. Unless tiny hands decide to put a pencil or similar through them. Still, I wouldn't be too concerned. Little fingers are just as likely to push in cone caps. If you're truly concerned, see if you can't hunt down some old ESS AMTs. The woofers need upgrading (a simple project), but they have a big boxy dustcover that drops over everything.

My parents have my AMT-1s and three grandkids over frequently. They're still in great shape.

But I'd recommend some kind of dipole. You'll get the imaging you want. Yes, the tonality and transparency can be a lot like an AKG, but you'll get a truly 3D soundstage. You'll be surprised when you hear them. When people hear my dipoles the first time they often look a little disconcerted and ask where the music is coming from.

I run Quad ESL-63s, but don't recommend them around kids. Quads can be temperamental and they run very high voltage. Something like 5.25kV on the stators. Touch both stators at the same time and you've got a problem.

One project you might be interested in is a Linkwitz Pluto. The drivers are about $200 and the cabinets are PVC pipe, which is easy to handle and cheap to have cut to length. You can DIY them for about $500. They're more or less omnipoles and you'll get a nice soundstage. One bonus is that they have built-in amps. Just add a nice preamp and you're done.


 

this is true first day i got my 1.7s my niece decided to head butt one of them running full speed for a 4 year old.

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