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All DAC's sound the same. - Page 22  

post #316 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

 

They're out of my price range so I haven't done a ton of research on them, but if someone put a gun to my head and told me to buy a spendy DAC I'd probably get a Benckmark DAC1.  The Anedio D1 also measures very well, but you'll probably want balanced output for your amps and the D1 only has RCA outputs.

 

I only really know about those because they're up near the top of the line as far as measurements go, so I've got no idea about anything near the price of your current DAC, though I've seen used DAC1s on ebay go for around that price here in the States.

 

There are probably all sorts of cheaper outboard DACs that might be indistinguishable from those even under the high sensitivity of an ABX test but with something like the Benchmark at least you know where your money's gone, even if its to improvements that are beyond human hearing.

 



I'd like to throw my hat in and say, if the DAC1 is too spendy and you don't need USB the DacMagic is also very good.  It measured in-line with the Benchmark when USB was not used at Stereophile (USB experienced substantially more jitter due too noisy PC PSU's, laptops on battery fared much better though).

post #317 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

I'd like to throw my hat in and say, if the DAC1 is too spendy and you don't need USB the DacMagic is also very good.  It measured in-line with the Benchmark when USB was not used at Stereophile (USB experienced substantially more jitter due too noisy PC PSU's, laptops on battery fared much better though).


I forgot about that one.  It may be a better choice if you don't need the Benchmark's built in amp.

post #318 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

I'd like to throw my hat in and say, if the DAC1 is too spendy and you don't need USB the DacMagic is also very good.

Did you look at the chart that represented the difference using USB? It looked to me that the only way to hear the difference between a noise floor of 125 dB and a noise floor of 145 dB would be to turn up the volume loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. Both of those DACs are overkill for normal listening.
post #319 of 373

All head-fier's trying to justify far too much money invested in relatively no sound improvement sound the same. Here's looking at you Dynobot.

 

People trying to justify that their multiple thousand dollar DAC really brings something different to the table compared to a 500 dollar one reminds me of Beats By Dre owners trying to justify their purchase. As another poster said it's just people plugging their ears going "LALALA CANT HEAR YOU. I SPENT MORE MONEY THEREFOR MY HEAD-FI-PEEN IS BIGGER THAN YOURS. SOUNDS GOOD MAN."

 

Bring on the blind tests, I await to see how the "golden-ears" perform.

post #320 of 373

So what you're saying is we should have an online community strike against all dac makers because they are ripping us off.  Hope you can back that up because i have a feeling that if you made a thread of your own, you would be hiding behind your desk rather quickly and VERY afraid to respond back.  Just saying.

I might make it for you and quote you just for jokes. 

Maybe laughing at people for trying to justify their ridiculous purchases is all right but if they have the money then i'm sure after owning a very good headphone capable of reproducing ridiculous amount of detail for months or years, they will have learned the headphone like the back of their hand.  Any change would be audible.  Do you not understand that?  

Another thing:

 

 


Edited by NewMACAdress - 7/1/11 at 9:13pm
post #321 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingStyles View Post

I dont want to get too into this discussion, but one thing that may be overlooked here, is the amp. if your amp is low end and you are testing a high end dac, it will still sound low end. If the amp cant reproduce all the detail, transparency, clarity, etc that the dac is sending it, this whole discussion is for nothing. One example from our last meet, we hooked up a Liquid fire and my BA both to my dac. The BA had better transparency, clarity, and detail retrieval than the liquid fire. The Liquid fire wasnt able to produce all the info it was being given. If both amps were put on a midfi dac, I am sure they would have sounded pretty much the same. Putting the liquid fire up to a high end front end  wasnt going to produce enough difference to make the dac different from a midfi dac because it isnt able to handle the extra info. The BA was able to scale up and handle this additional info so it will be able to show the differences of the dac. This is just food for thought on other reasons why dacs may all sound the same.

 

 



 

post #322 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMACAdress View Post

So what you're saying is we should have an online community strike against all dac makers because they are ripping us off.  Hope you can back that up because i have a feeling that if you made a thread of your own, you would be hiding behind your desk rather quickly and VERY afraid to respond back.  Just saying.

I might make it for you and quote you just for jokes. 

Maybe laughing at people for trying to justify their ridiculous purchases is all right but if they have the money then i'm sure after owning a very good headphone capable of reproducing ridiculous amount of detail for months or years, they will have learned the headphone like the back of their hand.  Any change would be audible.  Do you not understand that?  

Another thing:

 

 

 

What's your point?  Really: what's your point?  Everyone everywhere should be skeptical about the claims of manufacturers and marketers.  Even more so here, a hobbyist site that, at one time, had a reputation for not buying into the typical audiophile BS.  That changed a while ago, but there's nothing wrong with trying to rekindle that healthy skepticism. Go ahead and make your thread as promised above.
 

 

post #323 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post



Did you look at the chart that represented the difference using USB? It looked to me that the only way to hear the difference between a noise floor of 125 dB and a noise floor of 145 dB would be to turn up the volume loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. Both of those DACs are overkill for normal listening.


Check the last page too that notes the manufacturer's comments.  I agree the sidebands would probably be hard to hear at -90dB with 3ns of jitter -- but that doesn't really instill confidence in the USB output.  I'd imagine if you need USB there's probably better USB based converters out there, but that's me.

 

post #324 of 373

Ah, the gift to all audio salesmen, paranoia. "It seems unlikely that I can hear this - but what if I could? What if I could buy something else that performs better? What if...?". Even those who endorse measurements wholeheartedly, such as myself, are probably guilty of buying or planning to buy equipment that measures rather better than strictly neccessary - just in case.

post #325 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willakan View Post

Ah, the gift to all audio salesmen, paranoia. "It seems unlikely that I can hear this - but what if I could? What if I could buy something else that performs better? What if...?". Even those who endorse measurements wholeheartedly, such as myself, are probably guilty of buying or planning to buy equipment that measures rather better than strictly neccessary - just in case.


 

I still own a DacMagic, I just don't use the USB since the other input methods measure vastly better.  I imagine there's other better DACs for USB at the price range (regardless of audibility).  Then again, I don't like USB for audio output in general thanks to various problems in causes with clocking in general -- only on my laptop do I bother using it thanks to how noisy the onboard is.

post #326 of 373

Its funny how the All-Dacs-Sound-The-Same group uses the disclaimer; "If properly implemented"

 

All Dacs with opamps should sound the same "if the opamps were implemented properly", I imagine all dacs should sound the same regardless of USB type etc. as long as USB is implemented properly....after all Bits-R-Bits right?

 

This thread only proves one point.  People [men, Audiophiles, music lovers, people who think they know something] love to debate.  Its not the point that all Dacs sound the same, its just the point of arguing and trying to justify an opposing point of view about a subject.

 

debate.jpg?t=1309605327

post #327 of 373


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynobot View Post

Its funny how the All-Dacs-Sound-The-Same group uses the disclaimer; "If properly implemented"


Normally I wouldn't feed the troll, but heck . . . why not.

 

If something is built wrong it's going to perform badly regardless of what it is.  It's a fact of life is it not?  If software is built wrong it crashes, if hardware is built wrong or poorly it can constantly break too.  Why is it surprising that amps, dacs, and audio devices can be built wrong too?  Manufacturers aren't exempt from making mistakes by any means.

 

Quote:
All Dacs with opamps should sound the same "if the opamps were implemented properly", I imagine all dacs should sound the same regardless of USB type etc. as long as USB is implemented properly....after all Bits-R-Bits right?

 

Technically yes, but USB is inherently harder to engineer for.  I find 3ns of jitter a bit too high for comfort, but if you held a gun to my head I'd probably be unable to find a difference.  I would say there's substantially better engineered circuits for USB from Lavry or Benchmark though.  I'm sure there's cheaper ones too that are more immune to computers power . . . or perhaps isolating the power from USB could help substantially to prevent hefty levels of ripple.  Basically if someone had $350 they were dead-set spending for a DAC and said they were planning on using USB, I'd suggest looking for a DAC that performs best on USB because that's what they intend to use.  Courses for horses and all that jazz.

 

Also, opamps aren't necessarily a part of a DAC.  I'm guessing you mean DAC ICs . . .

post #328 of 373

0.000000003s of jitter a bit too high for comfort? I have to admit that your ears are better than mine..

post #329 of 373

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post #330 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by monoethylene View Post

0.000000003s of jitter a bit too high for comfort? I have to admit that your ears are better than mine..


 

Considering 10ns is considered clearly audible by studies published in AES it's to high for comfort to me when there's clearly better designs.  If you'd actually read my post, you would notice I'd admitted there's probably no audible difference (you can read, right?).  But, if you plan on using USB why wouldn't you just buy a DAC that has a better USB circuit anyway?  Heck, you could spend substantially less and get a USB DAC with the same levels of jitter -- there's really no way to argue for the DacMagic if the primary goal is using the USB and nothing else with unbalanced output: it doesn't make sense to pay more for something that measures quite worse audible or not does it?  This coming from a DacMagic owner too.

 

 

I also have to question: if you're not worried about jitter or various measurements . . . care to explain why you've spent large sums on the DACs you own?  Surely you can justify them with objective measurements and reasoning since you find it easy to make flippant remarks . . . right?

 

 

@Dyno:

 

Stop spamming/trolling.


Edited by Shike - 7/2/11 at 6:08am
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