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Headphones vs. loudspeakers - Page 5

post #61 of 74
Richard Aldrich,

Since no one else seems to be responding directly. I'll take the chance. You may be inclined to dismiss my opinion because I'm not an audiophile to the extent you are. That is, I won't tweak as long and aggressively and expensively as you have. I've gone just part way down that path and withdrawn from the brink.

Worse still, at the moment all my input is, by audiophile standards, junk--the premium piece among my sources is an ancient JVC 5-disc CD player. However, I've got quite a headphone amp, the Corda HA-1, and headphones that I believe you must try, Etymotic ER4s's. Cables? Well, I'm a cable skeptic. I use whatever routine stuff there is in a broad gauge and think no more about it. I've got a 10-foot Hama extension between the amp and the headphones, and I don't hear anything change when I plug in directly.

Will Etymotics deceive you for any span of time into thinking that you are listening to a live performance? Maybe. Only maybe. And certainly not for long. They don't do that for me very often, but they do provide an incredibly smooth, balanced, and detailed presentation of the recording with no unpleasant artifacts of their own--except for two really major ones (more later on). The music they deliver beats what came out of the best I have owned (and moderately tweaked) in the past, B&W 801f's powered by a Dynaco solid state amp (model forgotten) (That was my feeble bid for your respect of my opinion.)--and it beats them by quite a margin in all respects except soundstage.

OK. Those defects. First, the soundstage is always very much in your head or just in front of it, impossibly near. The spread left-to-right is very solid and convincing with, if anything, an exaggeratedly specific location for each player. The ambience can be stunning if the venue offers it and the engineers have made some attempt to capture it. One of the most realistic recordings I have ever heard is Bach organ through these little devils. And that sustains the illusory live performance long and well.

Second, the placement of the drivers deep inside your ear canals eliminates any skin contributions to the listening experience. Bass is wonderfully full and musical but without the last realistic touch of rattling you a bit when it gets really loud. As you have said, it is all a matter of discovering the trade-offs you can tolerate. I would much rather hear the bass distinctly and without distortion than have it rattle my chest.

With your perfectionist tendencies, I think you will want to add to the Etys custom molds to guarantee placement with the highest possible degree of consistency. I don't use them because I withdrew from the brink, remember. (Well, also because I don't have a good source for them and because my weight fluctuates, which can upset the fit of them.)

I'm not sure what kind of live music you favor as a reference. Mine is symphonic and chamber music in a couple of excellent local halls. However, I find that the soundstage described as praiseworthy by audiophiles and the soundstage presented by even the most admired recordings is quite a different thing from live, no matter how you take it. I think the recording engineering is almost always trying to punch up the music and give you a closer-than-audience perspective on things in a perhaps misguided attempt to get more attention for the recording, to induce a "Wow!" from the listener. Even binaural recordings that I have tried seem to muddle things in this way.

This makes use of live concert experiences as reference a peculiar kind of endeavor. But all that deserves a thread of its own.
post #62 of 74
Quote:
The attitude is that everything in the signal path degrades the signal and looses something. I am not completely party to this type of thinking. I think items of high quality inserted into the signal path might not do as much damage as the problem they are trying to solve..
Emphasis mine...
post #63 of 74
marantz cd6000ose cdp
redgum rgi60 dual mono amp
legend acoustics kama2 floorstanders
appature silver stage bl-4 interconnects

post #64 of 74

Etymotic speakers at concerts.

In regard to items inserted in the signal path. I should be more clear. For instance a jitter reduction unit will certainly introduce another set of cables and another component- but hopefully not affecting the sound as this would be in the Digital Domain. A parametric Eq might introduce another set of cables and a component (One notable exception is in McIntosh's car audio line where parametric eq's insert directly into amplifiers as modules) however the parametric eq might be addressing a particularly bad resonance or imbalance tonally from the left or right speaker (say a bass suck out caused by a fireplace on one wall) in that case it is the lesser of two evils.

As for Wes, he has one of the best "reference systems", live music, performed in good acoustical venues intended for the reproduction of music. In this regard Wes you can't improve upon your reference system. As for the Headphones- if they are convincing to you- to hell with the rest of the world, you've got it solved- I envy you.

Unless I could afford the Wadia for Digital, I would either use an analog front end or if that wasn't possible I would buy a very simple inexpensive system if I had to use digital as my source. Then I would spend the money saved on attending more concerts. Because consumer "mass market" electronics aren't going to give me the emotional response I seek.

I have been thinking about joining "team etymotic"- and will order a pair in a few days. Your opinion clinched it for me.

If you find you spend more time listening to headphones than speakers- then you should spend the most effort in refining your headphone system. I want to spend more time listening to headphones- because I want to be able to listen to music in other environments.

I enjoy attending concerts at Symphony Hall in Boston and at Berklee School of Music. I used to live on 74th street in NYC 4 doors down from Juilliard School of Music's practice rooms. Every afternoon music would pour forth from the garden outside and waft up to my balcony. I can not bear listening to the Boston concerts at the Hatchshell on the Charles River which are amplified using EAW loudspeakers. One wonders why the wonderful sound of the shell isn't utilized? There is no reverberent field now. The very least they could do would be to always broadcast the Hatchshell concerts on a local Fm station so I could use decent headphones to overcome the distorted sound from the speakers- sounds like a job for team etymotic!

other trivial sonic notes.

Carnegie Hall used to be very nice, but after the renovation many years ago I felt it lost its smooth sound. My cousin used to sing there. Another cousin of mine married the concert Pianist for the Stuttgart ballet, nice music during family reunions. Yet another Aunt plays at Carnegie Hall and attended Juilliard for 15 years.

I used to date one of Frank Loesser's daughters, Emily Loesser, who has the most wonderful singing voice and she often performs on Broadway with her mother Jo Sullivan. That was a treat to be sung to each day. My experience is not normal- just lucky. From being exposed to so much great sound I sought out a set of Infinty RS 1b's after hearing a pair in Lyric hi-fi in NYC. I bought them off a nice gentleman, Sid Marks, who wrote a record review collumn called Mark's Barks for a Magazine called the Absolute Sound. His system sounded very "wet " being all Conrad Johnson Equipment but very easy on the ears. Sid has a record collection that is nothing short of incredible. Sid's speakers were hand picked for him - nice pair.

Wish I had some Dot com money to buy his entire collection.

I just hope I don't have to buy a ridiculously priced headphone system- I have to admit I am scared to put a pair of Orpheus headphones on my head. I really don't want that expense to be upon my shoulders.

So far Wes- your recommendation might save me $9731.00
post #65 of 74
I listen to headphones more than I do speakers purely because I'm not able to use my speakers all the time like I would love to do. But I still spend 10x more on speaker equipment than I do on headphone equipment. The OTHER question you need to consider is... Do you enjoy the sound of dynamic speakers over headphones or vice versa?
post #66 of 74
speakers hands down

hmm y am i here...

*scratches his head*
post #67 of 74
Cause we like to have high end sound regardless of what we're using to listen? Besides, good place to kill time...
post #68 of 74
Good luck with the Etys, Richard.

And that's a rather glamorous set of listening experiences you have!

While Etys may not be the Holy Grail you are seeking, I think they will probably turn out to be a reference in some respects for you. In fact, I think anyone designing speakers or headphones should listen to them to see how many of their virtues they can match with their designs (and how many of their defects they can de-emphasize).

The Orpheus? Hmm. My natural skepticism comes into play there again. They remind me of an ad in the "New Yorker" many years ago for a watch by some famous Swiss firm. This piece cost $15,000 back when that would have bought you a fleet of Volkswagens and a Mercedes to lead the procession--mainly because its crystal was a single shallow diamond.

Of course, I haven't heard them and should defer to those who have, but the Orpheus strikes me as a stunt designed to give plausibility to the rest of the Sennheiser line. I'd be surprised if they were worth the price, which I speculate--most unfairly, I admit--has been exaggerated simply to get attention.

Definitely, try the Etys first!
post #69 of 74
If you want a good set of headphones get a pair of speakers
post #70 of 74

I wish I could sumarize better.

I own some ProAc Response 1SC speakers and I enjoy them for what they are. But I'm not a huge Dynamic speaker fan.

For these odd reasons. As you approach the upper frequency limit of a tweeter (within 2 octaves) the tweeter loses its off axis response. This makes the side reflections somewhat unbalanced and colors the sound. I also feel that since most dynamic speakers are limited to around 20khz you do not get the same harmonics caused by the positive and negative interfercence (i.e. a 24kHz wave and a 19kHz Wave make a 43KHz wave and a a 5kHz wave- the sum and difference frequencies) without true high frequency extension you just don't get that. Some Ribbon and planars go up to 35kHz.

I prefer hybrid Dynamic systems with Ribbon tweeters or planar dynamic speakers. I am not as fond of Electrostatic speakers with the exception of the Quads - which unfortuately don't play loudly enough for my tastes. I heard the Martin Logan Prodigy when it first came out...but I feel it must have needed some burn in as it didn't float my boat.

I also prefer ribbon midranges. If it has to be a dynamic midrange I prefer those to be crossed over higher as opposed to lower- at least above 4kHz for them to sound less colored.

As for woofers- the speaker should have smaller woofers that can respond quickly if the crossover is above 100hz. If the speaker has larger drivers than 10" the crossover should start below 70-80hz.

I'm not a DIY speaker guy (though I did make a nice crystal clear two way with the Apogee 5 inch ribbon and some nice Vifa drivers) but I find that in systems that I like they seem to have the aforementioned criteria in common.

IMHO Dynamic speakers have trouble reproducing the air and the subtle vocal transients as well as recreating the hall space as compared to ribbons and planars and electrostats.

IMHO Hybrid speakers often make the mistake of crossing over the high end panels too low- in those systems the speaker ussually lacks slam and pace- unless it has a plethora of midrange drivers.

Given the choice of line source vs point source. I prefer the loudness being uniform with a line source and the lack of reflections, however the point source ussually images better. The best itteration is when a designer takes the same driver and uses it over several crossover frequencies in a balanced mirrored d'apolitto configuration-


SO-

essentially you end up with a line source emulating a point source

-so you get realistic volume roll off (point sources get quieter with the inverse square of the distance- line sources sound more uniformly loud like real live sound) and you get near pinpoint imaging with fewer driver colorations as you are making the same driver work over a wider frequency range.

You also don't worry about off axis response since a dipolar line source does not need off axis response. I also prefer to have the woofer towers separate so they can be precisely time aligned to overcome the time delay produced by the crossover. But what a pain it is to dial these systems in- it takes a lot longer than a few evenings.


The well executed hybrids were the most elegantly brilliant solution to some of high ends trade offs. Some done with cheap parts mind you- if you took a look inside some of the Older infinity passive crossovers made in Mexico you would be appauled. (Lots of people hod rodded them- there were several clubs in Germany). Arnie Nudell (gensis , Infinity) is a brilliant designer- though I was not happy with his Genesis designs, and only the Infinity RS-1 and the IRS really took his concepts to fufillment.

Scary thing about those EMIMS on those speakers. The diaphrams were reinforced with Cellephane tape (scotch tape). I was always baffled that they worked as well as they did. It was a pity though that the same driver did not work well at all in any other of the point source designs that were made by Infinity. The IRS was the flagship but the EMIM and EMIT drivers worked horribly in the Nearfield situation just about cut your ears off at close range.
post #71 of 74
Oh, and I should clarify something. The great majority of dynamic speakers don't sound great. Unfortunately the majority of electrostatic speakers, and planar dynamic spekers don't sound great either

Just because a speaker is a planar or electrostatic won't ensure good sound and let's not forget it could be set up poorly in the store as well- (more likely than not) .


Ms. Alba you mentioned you have Infinity speakers. I haven't heard the newest ones. I would expect that there might be a little Revel in their blood which is a good thing. So many of the Harmon International guys are Canadian now and some Canadians seem to do an excellent job voicing speakers. Infinity appears to be getting alway from the "California" sound and heading more towards neutrality. Even some of the JBL speakers sound remarkably accurate (This was not the case before).

I did own a strange set of JBL's that were great for reproducing dynamically loud passages. They were the JBL paragons custom made in 4 separate boxes. (2) Bullet super tweeters, (2)Upper midrange 4" compression driver. (2) 12 inch lower midrange driver, and (4) 15 inch ported woofers. It cranked. We used Bryston Amps, and a venerable Mark Levinson Mixer to produce some of the best sound for large scale Catered events in Westchester county - beautiful venues on the Long Island Sound and in the Hamptons. Best party involved a lighting crew and hired surfers who surfed at night and we shot colored spot lights on them making the waves break in different colors. Those were the days. The speakers ended up being the left channel at the Bottom line Jazz club. Later a friend of mine bought and sold them. I miss those too. Pretty accurate for a LOUDspeaker.

You should really try and find yourself a used set of RS-1b's they were amazing. I bought mine for 2650, sold them for twice thaton EBAY a few months ago. Guy had pro packers come to my house- and ship them fed ex to British Columbia- the shipping cost him 3 grand. I got accolades from him after he set them up using a special positioning sheet I made. You might be able to find a set through stereo exchange in NYC, and sometimes Red Rose Music gets a few in trade. Being in Maine- it would be worth the trip.
post #72 of 74
Jessica Alba is not me! That's my celebrity crush, lol!

Well you know, I have recently been quite surprised by the sound of new JBL speakers. They sounded pretty damn good! I couldn't believe it. And they weren't even home speakers, it was a friends car system.

Infinitys flagship model are the Prelude MTS series. No way I could afford those or even the proper amplification for them, but when I got the chance to hear them, I was absolutely blown away. I have the Interlude series which still sounds quite nice(cheaper than most others too).

I have not the luck to run into an RS system as of yet. I've heard some people say that they sounded better than the MTS do now. I'm sure they sound completely different, but I bet I would like them too. =) I do however have an old pair of SM 122's. They sound quite nice.
post #73 of 74

Re: Re: We are after the same thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by M Rael


I figure if anything might inspire you to root around for a headphone discovery, this beauty might help do the trick.

Yeah, if I wasn't on SUCH a tight budget and could fork out $800!!!!
post #74 of 74
You know what, my http://www.frenchimages.com/marklev/IMF/RSPM/index.html speakers give me the same kind of sweet tonal and dyanmic responces and ranges as my Rs-2's/w mf-xcan2

yet gives me much better soundstage/positioning because of most stereo recordings

I still can't find it fair to compare the 2 of headphones/speakers
because they truely do, do different tasks

in my case, the both of them sound so amazing to my ears
that I can't say that one is better

it's just they fit my personal adjenda's differently
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