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STAX 404 / 507 - Page 2

post #16 of 34

Yeah, from every impression I read, the 207 and 307 belongs to one group and the 407 and 507 belongs to another. That's why I went with the 407. I think it's the sweet spot in the group and a very hard can to beat for 600.00.

post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

There is nothing that suggests the SR-404LE uses the same drivers as the normal SR-404.  Ditto for the SR-SC1.  They may look the same but that means nothing as all Lambda drivers are basically the same.  They certainly don't sound anything like one another...



Stax has not been reticent about trumpeting changes in drivers so if they don't say anything I don't think we can assume there are major changes(such as different membranes or stators.)  I would accept that something like tensioning of the diaphragm could change and I wouldn't expect Stax to announce this.

 

I like my Lambdas (LNS and 404) without the back foam. It gives a more mellow sound in my opinion, with a somewhat expanded soundstage.

 


Edited by edstrelow - 6/16/11 at 11:52am
post #18 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyrn View Post

Yeah, from every impression I read, the 207 and 307 belongs to one group and the 407 and 507 belongs to another. That's why I went with the 407. I think it's the sweet spot in the group and a very hard can to beat for 600.00.


From the research I have done that's not right I'm afraid. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong but everything I've read (including Stax's own word) has the 307 and 407 having the same driver and the 202 being the lower driver.

 

The only difference I can find about the 303 and 404 is the cable, and the only comparative review I've read with them on the same amp has them essentially sonically indistinguishable.

 

Stax's own descriptions on their website has the 307, 407 and 507 having the same driver "element" - IMO the same driver. The 507 are genuinely sonically different as they have different pads. Of course you can buy the EP507 and make your 407 507s if you like.

 

From Spritzer's reaction perhaps this isn't as established fact as I thought it was but its purely common sense.

 

The same line of reasoning leaves a very obvious conclusion that the 404LE is the 303/404 with the new leather pads.

 

I do not believe Stax made a whole new driver, put it out for limited production and then shelved it. Every description I've read of the sonic changes the 404LE exhibited sound like an exact description of the sonic improvements I got from putting the EP507 onto my 303.

 

The 507 was not a new idea - it was a re-visiting of the 404LE concept - why would they abandon those wonderful leather pads and the improvements they bring to the Lambda?

 

The illusion of the 30* and 40* being different headphones has likely been sustained by one being sold with a solid state amp and the other a tube/solid state hybrid giving their systems different flavours.

 

 

I know this isn't going to be a particularly popular opinion, especially for people who paid for 404s, 407s or 507s - and as has been pointed out its not confirmed - but I'd put a pretty hefty bet that my reasoning is correct.

Edited by EddieE - 6/16/11 at 1:19pm
post #19 of 34

Well as I said, I put the 507 pads over the 407, and still, the 507 had a slight advantage in bass response and clarity. And the 307 was a clear notch below the 407 and 507 (while having the same pads as the 407).

 

PS : I do not own any Stax gear :D.

post #20 of 34

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieE View Post




From the research I have done that's not right I'm afraid. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong but everything I've read (including Stax's own word) has the 303 and 407 having the same driver and the 202 being the lower driver.

 

The only difference I can find about the 303 and 404 is the cable, and the only comparative review I've read with them on the same amp has them essentially sonically indistinguishable.

 

Stax's own descriptions on their website has the 307, 407 and 507 having the same driver "element" - IMO the same driver. The 507 are genuinely sonically different as they have different pads. Of course you can buy the EP507 and make your 407 507s if you like.

 

From Spritzer's reaction perhaps this isn't as established fact as I thought it was but its purely common sense.

 

The same line of reasoning leaves a very obvious conclusion that the 404LE is the 303/404 with the new leather pads.

 

I do not believe Stax made a whole new driver, put it out for limited production and then shelved it. Every description I've read of the sonic changes the 404LE exhibited sound like an exact description of the sonic improvements I got from putting the EP507 onto my 303.

 

The 507 was not a new idea - it was a re-visiting of the 404LE concept - why would they abandon those wonderful leather pads and the improvements they bring to the Lambda?

 

The illusion of the 30* and 40* being different headphones has likely been sustained by one being sold with a solid state amp and the other a tube/solid state hybrid giving their systems different flavours.

 

 

I know this isn't going to be a particularly popular opinion, especially for people who paid for 404s, 407s or 507s - and as has been pointed out its not confirmed - but I'd put a pretty hefty bet that my reasoning is correc

 

 

 

What are you talking about. I never said they have different drivers, I'm not even commenting on the 202, 303, and 404 series. And where did you get 303 and 407 having the same drivers? I hope that was a typo because the driver in the 07 series is different. From all of the impressions I've read from people who have listened to both, the 407 sounds similar to the 507 and they both are an upgrade over the 307. Just read a few post up where the poster auditioned the 207, 307, 407, and 507. He said the same thing.  The 303, 404, series is something completely different. Stax went in another direction with their new lambda series, and I'm glad they did. I was a little disappointed with the 404. The 404le did sound better, but the 407 is much better than the 404. If you want to post impressions or opinions that's one thing, but to post something that entirely inaccurate is another.


Edited by moodyrn - 6/16/11 at 12:06pm
post #21 of 34

If I did say the 303 and 407 were the same it certainly was a typo, although searching through the post I can't see where I did in order to edit it? But there are a lot of numbers up there...

 

For clarity - 

 

The 207, 307 and 407 are updated version of the 202, 303 and 404. There is no reason to think the philosophy behind the grading has changed and from the research I've done (which hasn't included the impressions of people with time in between listens or new owners as its worthless) has informed my opinions. I've been pretty clear its my opinion, but it is based on more than subjective ramblings of head-fiers.

 

The description on the Stax website for the 307 and 407 says: The SR-307 and SR-407 have adopted the same sounding body (sound element) as that of the top model SR-507. The conventional sound element has employed simplest structure so that as wide film diaphragm area as possible can be effectively used in comparison with its external size. Taking advantage of the conventional feature, the new sound element has been packaged in a tough resin case. Thus the new sound element has realized cleaner sound and better reliability. Also a new thin-film material (super engineering plastics) almost free from stretch through temperature or humidity has been adopted, enabling both the rich, deep low frequency and the delicate high-frequency sound.

 

If you search through the Stax thread and threads on other forums you will find endless references to the 303 and 404 also using the same driver as each other. As I said - there is no reason to think the philosophy in naming has changed.

 

Throughout this it has always been clear that the 202 (and modern equivalent 207) have a lesser driver.

 

There has never been any suggestion from Stax or elsewhere that the 507 and the 407 have a different driver.

 

This is probably why people are more willing to go along with the idea that they sound similar when actually there is a far greater advertised difference between 507 and 407 (pads) than there is between 307 and 407 (cable, colour).

 

I'm aware its going to be an incredibly unpopular opinion, but the only subjective comparison I really take seriously is the six moons one, as he had both right in front of him, from the same generation at the same time with the same amp - those are the right conditions and help me take it seriously.

 

The rest I write off as head-fi rambling, placedbo, confirmation bias, and general flawed subjectivism. The fact that there are two eras of pads and if you believe some reports that there was a point when build quality suddenly dropped have to be taken into account - the 6 moons review definitely used models from the exact same point in production.

 

Anyway, all I'm doing is outlining my logic. I understand a lot of people aren't going to like the idea and have plenty of motivation to dismiss it. But show me anything from Stax that suggests there is any difference between them but the cable and I will revise my opinion. Otherwise I'll leave it there rather than get into a debate.

post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieE View Post




From the research I have done that's not right I'm afraid. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong but everything I've read (including Stax's own word) has the 303 and 407 having the same driver and the 202 being the lower driver.

 

 

 

 

 

That is a direct quote from you. I can't see why you can't find it.

post #23 of 34

And you are basing your opinions on reading and guessing instead of what others have said of their own listening impressions. And you don't even have a clue yourself of what each headphone sounds like. So that's why no one is taking you seriously and I have said way too much myself. So go ahead, have at it.

post #24 of 34

Let me give you some numbers :

 

http://www.stax.co.jp/Export/SR307_407-e.html

 

As you can see, the 307 and 407 have a different impedance and capacitance even though the cable is rated at the same impedance (10 000 hz). That suggests there is something different. Now, that can be the driver, some change in material somewhere to lower costs (remember, a driver is made of differents things, Stax might just change one of them, keeping the rest of the driver the same), or some magical divine intervention, I don't know (I'm no technician), but I don't think that is a typo.

 

You can also see that specs are close (not identical though) between the 207 and 307, and between the 407 and 507. If we cannot extrapolate from similar specs that the driver is the same (we can't know), we can certainly extrapolate from differing specs (taking the cable out of the equation as it is rated the same), that there is some real change somewhere inside between the 307 and 407.

 

I recognize that of the old line up, I only listened to the 303, and that listening conditions are always tricky in a store. But I spent three hours listening to them all today, and if a Stax system + a 1500 euros DAC isn't revealing enough, then I don't know what is. 

 

PS : according to the seller, they were all burnt in for more than 100 hours. Could be a liar though, you never know.

 

 

 

 

post #25 of 34

Moodyn,

I see it now, fixed. And what I am saying is I trust the review conditions in the 6moons review - two models from the same point in time from the same batch on the same amp looking for specific differences to report on for his review - than the usual head-fi ramblings. ETA - The 6moons review is the most complete comparison I've read and it is the main basis of my opinion, although with that in mind everything I've read since firms that up, except for MayaTlab's point...

 

MayaTlab

Actually the cable on the SR-40* is the only advertised difference between it and the SR-30* maybe impedence is another difference that is not advertised or maybe it is a result of the cable.

 

You don't seem to be reacting to the fact that on Stax's own website it says they use the same driver... 


Edited by EddieE - 6/16/11 at 1:29pm
post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyrn View Post

And you are basing your opinions on reading and guessing instead of what others have said of their own listening impressions. And you don't even have a clue yourself of what each headphone sounds like. So that's why no one is taking you seriously and I have said way too much myself. So go ahead, have at it.



OK fair enough, I'll leave it too.

 

Anyone can research it and find dozens of mentions of the 3 and 4 lambdas having the same drivers (at more sites than just this one) and seeing that its what I consider to be very credible posters saying it. They can also read the 6moons review and see exactly how I've formed my opinion. They can also read the Stax website and see that the cable is the only advertised difference and hence, I assume, the explanation of their different stats.

 

If it's wrong, it's wrong, but it's an opinion that's come from more than listening to subjective impressions on this forum.

post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieE View Post

Moodyn,

I see it now, fixed. And what I am saying is I trust the review conditions in the 6moons review - two models from the same point in time from the same batch on the same amp looking for specific differences to report on for his review - than the usual head-fi ramblings.

 

MayaTlab

Actually the cable on the SR-40* is the only advertised difference between it and the SR-30* maybe impedence is another difference that is not advertised or maybe it is a result of the cable.

 

You don't seem to be reacting to the fact that on Stax's own website it says they use the same driver... 


They do not even mention the word "driver". They talk about "sounding body" and "sound element", whatever than means. And as I said, their cable is rated at the exact same impedance (10 000 hz), yet they have a different impedance. To me that means something has changed inside.

 

Beyerdynamic claims the DT 1350 driver is different from te T50p. For having owned both of them, I bet they're 90% identical with just slight changes here or there. My bet is that it is the same for the 307 and 407. Slight changes are usually enough to bring changes in sound quality (might not be dramatic, but it's still there). Again, most of the driver might be identical, but I'd bet there has been some slight changes, to some of the driver's components for example.

 

PS : I'm not saying the 303 and 404 don't have the same driver. I've never heard both of them (only the 303) and I've never even read their caracteristics. And again remember that a driver is not a unitary, indivisible unit.

 

PS2 : Advertising is advertising. And involves quite a lot of spinning.

 

PS3 : I have probably no reason to dismiss any sort of claim as I do not own any Stax gear. And I don't think they're in the stock market.


Edited by MayaTlab - 6/16/11 at 1:49pm
post #28 of 34

Maya,

I see what you're getting at and I've wondered that too - but with a dynamic driver you can change damping, what can you really change with the principle of this driver? They say the driver "element" - yes - but the whole description blurb for every element of the driver is shared over both models.

 

Your point about the impedence of the cable is a good one, and not one I can really counter as I have no idea if the different capacitance of the 4 cable would effect the impedence of the phone itself.

 

It's the best anyones done to show me a difference between the two anyway so fair play to that. But really, do have a google and see how many knowledgeable people out there on stats have said they are the same driver - I'm not just day dreaming this up.

post #29 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieE View Post

Maya,

I see what you're getting at and I've wondered that too - but with a dynamic driver you can change damping, what can you really change with the principle of this driver? They say the driver "element" - yes - but the whole description blurb for every element of the driver is shared over both models.

 

Your point about the impedence of the cable is a good one, and not one I can really counter as I have no idea if the different capacitance of the 4 cable would effect the impedence of the phone itself.

 

It's the best anyones done to show me a difference between the two anyway so fair play to that. But really, do have a google and see how many knowledgeable people out there on stats have said they are the same driver - I'm not just day dreaming this up.


I've read the same reports. As well as their different specs on their own website. That's actually one of the reasons why I just pushed the door of a nice parisian dealer to simply try them. And I reported my impressions to the community. When I asked to change pads and cables the retailer probably thought I was crazy but still allowed me to do so. And my impressions seems to mirror the fact that there isn't just a cable change between the 307 and 407. It was much less evident between the 407 and 507. One of the things I wondered is if only the new 507 cable gave it its improved sensibility over the 407 (the stock 507 plays louder than the stock 407). And I won't comment on that, even after changing cables, as level matching is rather difficult to do. However, bass performance was different, even with the leather pads on the 407. I mostly used Massive Attack's Angel to test that and the Firebird intro.

 

post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post




. When I asked to change pads and cables the retailer probably thought I was crazy but still allowed me to do so.


 

 

A dealer allowed you to change cables????   Can you do that without opening the cases and unsoldering?
 

 

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