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post #586 of 835

It may be that the A/D circuit in your PC will mask the differences (assuming their are measurable differences), but supposedly diffmaker doesn't require super high end gear to work.  See the info on their page on the bottom right, under the heading "doesn't this process require ultra-high end recording equipment?"  

 

If you have an RCA -> stereo mini cable on hand, to run from your dac to your PC in, it probably wouldn't take too terribly long to find out.  Please let us know if you have an opportunity to give it a try!

post #587 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talos View Post

 

 

I'm not sure that would help here.  You are talking about the cable that connects my PC to my DAC.  I have no way to get the DAC's output back into the computer to digitize and compare.  I suppose I could run a cable with RCA's on one end and and a Mic jack on the other, from my DAC to the Mic input on my PC and digitize that.  The problem with that approach is that the sound quality would be seriously degraded by the analog input and D/A stages of the computer.  Those degradations would be (and say this in expectation, not, to be honest, having actually done it!) significantly greater than the differences induced by changing the USB cable.

 

Or am I missing something?....


Quote:

Originally Posted by skeptic View Post

It may be that the A/D circuit in your PC will mask the differences (assuming their are measurable differences), but supposedly diffmaker doesn't require super high end gear to work.  See the info on their page on the bottom right, under the heading "doesn't this process require ultra-high end recording equipment?"  

 

If you have an RCA -> stereo mini cable on hand, to run from your dac to your PC in, it probably wouldn't take too terribly long to find out.  Please let us know if you have an opportunity to give it a try!



If the differences are hidden by the A/D process then they are pretty small. For $30 you can pick up the Behringer UCA202 USB soundcard with ADC this will do a better job than a cheap integrated soundcard mic input and should resolve to about 15 bits or 1 part in about 32K (0.003%) so a difference that is smaller than this level (0.0003db) will be masked by quantization error but a "night and day" difference will not be masked. 

post #588 of 835

I wouldn't have expected this thread to be still alive.

 

Just to let you know, I've bought the January issue of Hifi News as the paper version was once again available on myhobbystore.co.uk last week. I'll post a summary of the article on usb cables and jitter (especially the measurements' results) when I get my hands on it... meaning end of August (I've got it shipped home but I'm abroad for the weeks to come).

post #589 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Prove that theory please.

 


It's all just hand-waving.

 

se

 

 

 

post #590 of 835

Here's an idea. Let's set aside the 40 page hand-waving debate over whether or not a certain USB protocol can lose data or add noise due to power line interference.

 

Instead why don't we first address the claim that different USB cables modify the sounds; claims of it making it sounds "warmer" or "better sound stage" or "crisper highs" or whatever.

 

To save you the trouble of reading through the endless pages of debate no doubt to follow, I'll jump the answer: It is theoretically impossible.

 

Not just impossible as in, hey, that's like 0.000001% likely to happen. Impossible as in, if this is possible, then computers can spontaneously become self-aware, unicorns and pigs can fly, clouds are actually made of cotton candy, and magic is real.


Edited by ac500 - 7/29/11 at 2:52pm
post #591 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

 

Not just impossible as in, hey, that's like 0.000001% likely to happen. Impossible as in, if this is possible, then computers can spontaneously become self-aware, unicorns and pigs can fly, clouds are actually made of cotton candy, and magic is real.


And that is bad why? I dream of that evey night to feel like a little princess 0.0

 

On a side note, a doubt has occurred to me: if a USB cable could change the data being transferred to a DAC, then when I put FLAC sound files from my desktop computer into my external Hard Drive using a USB-to-miniUSB, and then I put them in my laptop using that same cable from the Hard Drive, the files I put there might be different? So I'm not playing the same file?

post #592 of 835


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

Here's an idea. Let's set aside the 40 page hand-waving debate over whether or not a certain USB protocol can lose data or add noise due to power line interference.

 

Instead why don't we first address the claim that different USB cables modify the sounds; claims of it making it sounds "warmer" or "better sound stage" or "crisper highs" or whatever.

 

To save you the trouble of reading through the endless pages of debate no doubt to follow, I'll jump the answer: It is theoretically impossible.

 

Not just impossible as in, hey, that's like 0.000001% likely to happen. Impossible as in, if this is possible, then computers can spontaneously become self-aware, unicorns and pigs can fly, clouds are actually made of cotton candy, and magic is real.


Oh please, just use your ears. 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by LizardKing1 View Post


.....I dream of that evey night to feel like a little princess.....

 

 

That's probably a little more than we need to know.

post #593 of 835

> On a side note, a doubt has occurred to me: if a USB cable could change the data being transferred to a DAC, then when I put FLAC sound files from my desktop computer into my external Hard Drive using a USB-to-miniUSB, and then I put them in my laptop using that same cable from the Hard Drive, the files I put there might be different? So I'm not playing the same file?

 

Your USB cable cannot change the data rate. You DAC might downsample, but not the USB cable. I'd be willing to bet this has been said before on this thread, but unless the cable is faulty, it's going to work just fine. Even if it doesn't work fine, all you'll hear as a difference is skipping/clicking. Also, if you do hear skipping, it's more than likely that it has nothing to do with the cable and is instead your computer's USB controller having trouble (which could be due to any number of things).

 

upstateguy: You can believe in unicorns and santa clause if you want.


Edited by ac500 - 7/31/11 at 11:19am
post #594 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

upstateguy: You can believe in unicorns and santa clause if you want.

 


You know I don't.

 

post #595 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post

You know I don't.


Oh please, just use your eyes.

 

I mean, you can find Santa in any major mall in the U.S. around Christmas.

 

And how do you explain this?

licorne_17.jpg


Edited by Head Injury - 7/31/11 at 12:15pm
post #596 of 835

I'm pretty sure this has been explained over and over and over again.  It is physically impossible for a USB cable to significantly (as in, audibly) change the sound.


Also, data transfer works differently.  In this case, it really is a matter of "works or doesn't."  It is error-correcting and uses retransmission so if there are any errors the controller will request for that packet to be resent until it gets through perfectly.

post #597 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBomb77766 View Post

Also, data transfer works differently.  In this case, it really is a matter of "works or doesn't."  It is error-correcting and uses retransmission so if there are any errors the controller will request for that packet to be resent until it gets through perfectly.


I imagined something like that would happen. So I can never get a bit-different file in this kind of transfer, since any error will be corrected?

 

Also I just read an article on the 21,000$ 3 meter Audioquest speaker cable. Would a snakeoil cables thread be a good idea? We could add the Cynosure from Locus cables, and the ALO LODs. What do you think?


Edited by LizardKing1 - 7/31/11 at 5:34pm
post #598 of 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by LizardKing1 View Post




I imagines something like that would happen. So I can never get a bit-different file in this kind of transfer, since any error will be corrected?

 

Also I just read an article on the 21,000$ 3 meter Audioquest speaker cable. Would a snakeoil cables thread be a good idea? We could add the Cynosure from Locus cables, and the ALO LODs. What do you think?



Data corruption while transferring data with USB is very rare...and if it does actually happen (not sure if it's even really possible unless you accidentally unplug the cable while it's transferring or if the computer crashes), chances are the file won't even open/won't work at all.  But as far as I know, that never happens...at any rate, it's not something anyone should worry about.

 

There already are "snakeoil cable threads," sort of.  The "audiophile myths" thread is one of them, and this is kind of another.

 

To me, Locus is one of the worst...if you look at how much their flagship USB cable is then look at their "trial policy," it's pretty ridiculous. (something like a 20% "restocking fee" for a $2500 cable, shipping and handling not included...)

post #599 of 835

I'm reading their description on the Cynosure and it's amazing. Literally like a fairytale.

 

Anyway, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive-speaker-cable-world-audioquest-audiophile/

post #600 of 835

I would place locus [pocus?] design in the same bag with LessLoss audio.  The way they market their products is appalling and retarded, as is the physical width of their flagship cable.

 

"hear the difference" doesn't cut it -  there are too many frailties to casual perception to rely upon it.  One can either measure electrical performance, then prove that the results can be heard, or do a direct ABX or equivalent. 

 

With USB cables it really is the measurements that count, and the changes a USB cable make can only be to RF noise and signal Jitter.  There is no mysterious magic going on to warrant such a product development approach.  

 

At the very least some oscilloscope measurements with real world connectors would be appropriate, but it would seem as price increases, accountability decreases and snake oil factor increases.

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