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Audiophilleo 1 and 2 USB to S/PDIF transport - Page 23

post #331 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobeau View Post


Great writeup.  But isn't this only true if you upsample?  A 16 bit stream otherwise played on a DAC capable of much more will be still 16 bits, just padded with a bunch of 0s, no?

 



From my understanding, upsampling has nothing to do bit depth resolution in the context explained above. What I said about digital attenuation is true whether we are talking about 44.1K, 48K, ... or 384K.

Meanwhile it is true only when there is no upsampling; indeed, as soon as you start upsampling, you are creating a new file and presenting something else to the DAC chip. Some DACs behave differently whether they are used at 44.1K or 192K (the Benchmark DAC upsamples all incoming streams to 110KHz because their DAC chip performs best at that particular frequency according to its designers).
So I should have probably been more specific, by saying that we are attenuating for instance a 16/44 stream using a 24/44 calculation.

 

Regarding what you said about a 16 bit stream played by a 16+ bit DAC, I do agree with what you said to some extent. The 16 bit data won't be magically transformed to something else just because it is played by a 24 or 32 bit DAC (i.e there will be no creation of new data).

However, by looking at how dac chips behave, presenting a 16 bit stream padded to 24 bits can in some cases provide with better results at the analog outputs. Let's us take the PCM1704 dac chip for instace: if you look at page 4 of its data sheet (see here: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1704.pdf), you can see that the same -110 db signal looks like a sine wave when played at 24 bits but is barely recognizable when played at 20 bits. Given that the -110 db is above the noise floor of both 20 bit and 24 signals, it shouldn't matter if the DAC behaved similarly whether it was fed with 16, 20 or 24 bit data.

As a result, padding with a bunch of 0s and presenting a 24 bit stream (of 16 bit file) to a 24+ bit DAC might change or improve the sound under some specific conditions.

I hope this helps answering your question.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #332 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobeau View Post


Great writeup.  But isn't this only true if you upsample?  A 16 bit stream otherwise played on a DAC capable of much more will be still 16 bits, just padded with a bunch of 0s, no?

 


And the AP1 doesn't upsample unless I'm mistaken. That's why I think the digital volume control is more of a concern with redbook files at the converter level rather than the DAC level. As I understand it, just as most "24bit" DACs are not actually 24bit, neither are 24bit recordings - they don't actually use all of that available range so it's not an issue to throw away 3 or 4 bits on what may actually be a 20bit recording anyway. Taking a 16bit recording down to 12bits is more problematic.

 

My guess is that a $500 passive preamp and the AP2 would likely outperform the AP1 and its internal volume control.

post #333 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post


As I understand it, just as most "24bit" DACs are not actually 24bit, neither are 24bit recordings - they don't actually use all of that available range so it's not an issue to throw away 3 or 4 bits on what may actually be a 20bit recording anyway. Taking a 16bit recording down to 12bits is more problematic.

 


 

It is actually the other way around as I explained earlier. If you use digital attenuation on a true 20 bit recording playing on a true 20 bit DAC, you will start throwing away bits as soon as you attenuate.

 

If you attenuate a 16 bit recording with a true 20 bits DAC, you have 24 db of possible digital attenuation before you start decimating the actual data in the 16 bit recording (assuming there is even data recorded at the 16bit/96db level). It is very simple math as long as the digital attenuation is done properly (which is the case of the AP1).

 

I have chosen the AP2 because I didn't need the extra features of the AP1 (and because I could eventually attenuate digitally by a media player). However, it is simply wrong to imply that using digital attenuation will involve decimation of 16 bit data played on a 20/24 bits  DAC as soon as you start attenuating.

post #334 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
the same -110 db signal looks like a sine wave when played at 24 bits but is barely recognizable when played at 20 bits. Given that the -110 db is above the noise floor of both 20 bit and 24 signals, it shouldn't matter if the DAC behaved similarly whether it was fed with 16, 20 or 24 bit data.

 

Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding, but if a -110db signal is > 24 bits, then doesn't that mean it's being fed by a > 24 bit signal?  Shouldn't we be looking for discrepencies at graphs for -90db?  This idea seems further played out by running the -120 graphs where more havoc is wreaked by running at 24 and 20 (where it's just about flatlined).  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post

And the AP1 doesn't upsample unless I'm mistaken.


It doesn't, but your source can.

 


Edited by bobeau - 2/8/12 at 1:09pm
post #335 of 716


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post

 

 

If you attenuate a 16 bit recording with a true 20 bits DAC, you have 24 db of possible digital attenuation before you start decimating the actual data in the 16 bit recording (assuming there is even data recorded at the 16bit/96db level). It is very simple math as long as the digital attenuation is done properly (which is the case of the AP1).

 

I have chosen the AP2 because I didn't need the extra features of the AP1 (and because I could eventually attenuate digitally by a media player). However, it is simply wrong to imply that using digital attenuation will involve decimation of 16 bit data played on a 20/24 bits  DAC as soon as you start attenuating.

 

This makes sense to me if the attenuation is happening at the DAC level. What I'm confused about is if the attenuation is happening at the converter level, before it reaches the DACs input stage. If the volume is already reduced by the AP1 before it even reaches the DAC, isn't the DAC seeing an already reduced bitrate at its input stage? In other words, isn't it impossible to send both volume reduced and a bit perfect 16/44 signal to the DAC?
 

 

post #336 of 716

This is going a little bit out of topic, so this my last post on the subject (in order to not derail this thread). There is plenty of material out there for those wishing to really learn about digital attenuation and its effect on the signal.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobeau View Post

 

I'm confused.  If a -110db signal is > 24 bits, then doesn't that mean it's being fed by a > 24 bit signal?  Shouldn't we be looking for discrepencies at graphs for -90db?  This idea seems further played out by running the -120 graphs where more havoc is wreaked by running at 24 and 20 (where it's just about flatlined).  

 

This just seems too much like free lunch.  Either you attenuate in the digital (alter data) or analog (alter signal).  A bunch of 0s offers no data to alter.

 


It doesn't, but your source can.

 


-110 db = 18.3 bit * 6 db/bit : in other words -110 db = 18.3 bit of resolution

-120 db = 20 bit * 6 db/bit : in other words -120 db = 20 bit resolution

- 144 db = 24 bit * 6 db/bit : in other words -144 db = 24 bit of resolution

 

So you see, you can clearly resolve a -110 db signal with a 20 or 24 bit DAC.

Moreover, have you ever looked at a graph of a 16 bit signal? The actual noise is at around -130 db. The 96 db SNR/DR is done through some calculation.

 

There is no free lunch here, if you had read carefully my first post on the subject. I mentioned the non linearity of the DAC which would make an attenuated signal come out different from the non-attenuated signal in its lowest bits.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post


 

 

This makes sense to me if the attenuation is happening at the DAC level. What I'm confused about is if the attenuation is happening at the converter level, before it reaches the DACs input stage. If the volume is already reduced by the AP1 before it even reaches the DAC, isn't the DAC seeing an already reduced bitrate at its input stage? In other words, isn't it impossible to send both volume reduced and a bit perfect 16/44 signal to the DAC?
 

 

The DAC is not seeing a reduced bitrate at its input stage.

 

Let's say we start with a 16/44.1 file. Let's say we attenuate digitally with 6db through a perfect 24 bit software (it is actually very easy to do - 6db in digital attenuation). And let's say we output the resulting file in 24/44.1

 

What we are actually doing is that the DAC is paradoxically seeing an increased bitrate incoming stream from the original 16 to the attenuated 24 bits. The change is in the peak level of the files! If the peak level in the 16/44 was 0db (full scale), the peak level in the attenuated 24 bit file would be - 6 db!

That is how it works, digital attenuation does not mean that you are outputting a file a reduced bitrate; what you are doing is creating a file with a reduced peak level! Depending on the behavior of the DAC chip to different bit depth streams and the level of attenuation, the result is different.
 

 

post #337 of 716

Okay, so I guess I stand to be corrected on this :)

 

This seems to explain the phenomena rather simply

 

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/VolumeControl.htm

post #338 of 716

Here is my ultimate solution for quality.

 

Active USB HUB powered with a battery pack.

Battery are 6 x 1.2 volts NIMH (2100ma)

Friend made me a small circuit (resistor + regulator 5volts) to give clean power for my Hub.

While the hub don't take the current from the USB, the sound quality is greatly improved.

IMG_3039_ps.jpg

 

- Darker background

- More details (without adding global brightness)

- Smooth musical presentation very natural and and in control

 

* Why 2 adaptors on the circuits ... ? I tested 2 kind of battery and they used different connector.

 

It was a proof of concept to evaluate if I could get even better and this is the case. I will test soon a linear lab powersupply like mastek (http://www.electronicsandradios.com/wpimages/variable-dc-power-supply-hy6003d.jpg) to see if I can bring things close to my battery pack.

 

My solution is not ideal because this battery pack could probably power hub+ap2 for 5-15 hrs ... I don't know exactly ... so it's not a plug + forget solution. ;-) But it's pretty amazing ! 8-)

post #339 of 716
That looks like a Deans Ultra connector. Was your second pack an RC racing pack? Maybe a 6 cell Nimh or Lipo pack? Did it not perform as well for some reason?
post #340 of 716

Do we have any news about when the battery pack is supposed to be ready ? I read somewhere it was going to be released somewhere around late january / early february - and still nothing.

post #341 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompon View Post

Here is my ultimate solution for quality.

 

Active USB HUB powered with a battery pack...

 

 

- Darker background

- More details (without adding global brightness)

- Smooth musical presentation very natural and and in control

 

 



 

That sounds encouraging. Are the improvements worth taking further? How about a Red Wine PS?

post #342 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigmode View Post

 

That sounds encouraging. Are the improvements worth taking further? How about a Red Wine PS?

 

Along those lines this might interest some folks:

 

- 5v battery powered supply tested with audiophilleo

- powers audiophilleo for approx 12 hours

- flip a switch to use/recharge, takes 7 hours to recharge

- caveat: must supply a dual usb cable to power the audiophilleo and cut the power leg on the source as it's a ps only (doesn't pass a signal)

- also includes dc jack which the battery powered version of the audiphilleo is supposed to use

- under $200

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews/item/339-kingrex-upower-5v-li-ion-battery-usb-psu

 


 

 


Edited by bobeau - 2/25/12 at 10:01am
post #343 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobeau View Post

 

Along those lines this might interest some folks:

 

- 5v battery powered supply tested with audiophilleo

- powers audiophilleo for approx 12 hours

- flip a switch to use/recharge, takes 7 hours to recharge

- caveat: must supply a dual usb cable to power the audiophilleo and cut the power leg on the source as it's a ps only (doesn't pass a signal)

- also includes dc jack which the battery powered version of the audiphilleo is supposed to use

- under $200

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews/item/339-kingrex-upower-5v-li-ion-battery-usb-psu

 


 

 



 

Could this be used to power the "Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub" I have as well?

It is now powered with a 12V - 24W AC/DC wall adapter.


Edited by AppleheadMay - 2/25/12 at 10:11am
post #344 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleheadMay View Post

 

Could this be used to power the "Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub" I have as well?

It is now powered with a 12V - 24W AC/DC wall adapter.


Hmm... probably not, it says it supplies 7.5v on the dc jack.  And without knowing the specs of the battery powered audiophilleo it may not work for that either.

 

post #345 of 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleheadMay View Post

Could this be used to power the "Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub" I have as well?

It is now powered with a 12V - 24W AC/DC wall adapter.


The Red Wine 12V battery supply should work. I think B-P-T also custom makes 12V battery supplies.

 

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