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Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable - Page 205

post #3061 of 3746

Oh - I wish I never saw this. For me, it is the final and decisive nail in the coffin with Technics inscription on it.

 

I DO understand that manufacturers have to make ends meet, that they are in buiness because of business and not because of proving the right cause .

 

Technics did , more than anyone else, push the limit of the possible. If anyone of you harbour the notion of Technics being "an inferiour Japanese brand producing mass consumption plastic junk" - think again. And think HARD . Because your high pitched snobbery inclined nose is likely to get bloody after seeing the facts. In almost any audio category, Technics used to have a product there at least with rhe best of them; in quite a few, they were producing the pinnacle of the very best that was ever available. Just google what SE-A1 was/is - the list goes on, almost without an end.

 

But turning scientific and technical supremacy in $ is another matter. As late as 1996, Technics introduced one of its best creations, the RS-AZ 6/7 casette deck.

It is one of the handful of cassette decks capable of sound quality of which an average high heeled audiophile is absolutely unaware that so high SQ can be coming from cassette, let alone a Technics. Nakamichi "snobs" - it is up there, if not better - at least with the metal tape. And it DOES smoke anything else I have ever heard in the bass, including any reel to reel recorder ever produced.

 

Its service manual has some 60 pages. There IS more electronics in this deck than on average in entire high end systems. It IS hard to align an analog recorder, it has to be done manually on the assembly line - to each and every sample. To sum things up - it is a reserch and development, materials and labour intensive product.

 

Technics found, the hard way, they can sell CD players "with comparably to the RS AZ series deck almost nothing in it " much better than cassette decks. Despite cassette deck being tour de force design and CD player(s) being mere "also runs" in comparison.

 

After all is said is done, I do understand why Matsu****a phased out the Technics name around Y2K. But disgracing the memory of the people that in the past did contribute so much to the state of the audio art by introducing the SL-700 with the Technics badge on it - that :eek: is a straw too far.

post #3062 of 3746




It's my latest acquisition, and its SL1210 + PP2i + Concorde Arkiv. These 15 vinyl buttons I stuck to the mat help reduce resonances and solve problem that most of my records are very far from being flat. This upgrade was around 5 euro, and it resulted in true improvement of sound quality. Basically wow/flutter went away, bass became more tight and controlled.
post #3063 of 3746
Now thats a tweak i like. I use the same sticky bumpers as feet under my dac. Cost: €0.80. Only they are pretty tough/hard. I found some better rubber feet on Ebay that work much better as feet.
I also have a Ringmat that does about the same thing. Only I prefer a clamp and straight on the perspex platter.

The Technics story is a bit the general story of Japanese mainstream 'hifi'. It's like nobody is interested anymore in hifi since the introduction of the cd. Although it's more the introduction of bad sounding MP3 and the false idea that 'music is free'.

Hey, and why can't you say Matsu****a (pronouced: matshushta) the mothercompany of Technics, National and Panasonic? biggrin.gif
Don't you just love being treated as a 5y-old. rolleyes.gif
Edited by ]eep - 5/3/14 at 6:58am
post #3064 of 3746
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolas View Post





It's my latest acquisition, and its SL1210 + PP2i + Concorde Arkiv. These 15 vinyl buttons I stuck to the mat help reduce resonances and solve problem that most of my records are very far from being flat. This upgrade was around 5 euro, and it resulted in true improvement of sound quality. Basically wow/flutter went away, bass became more tight and controlled.

This is a nice attempt to solve the record/mat/platter inteface - with 1210 in stock form, I can even believe it actually resulted in sound as described. How this can help at very far from flat records is something beyond my comprehension - it should make warped records even worse.

post #3065 of 3746

Unless the warps fall between the dots.  Couple different attempts to place the record on the dots in a good place might help.  Maybe not.  I think they defy the whole purpose of the relationship between the platter and record altogether, so I don't get it, but to each his own.  :)

post #3066 of 3746
I don't think it helps but if he says it does who am I to argue that? It's always good to experiment and learn hands-on.
post #3067 of 3746
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

I don't think it helps but if he says it does who am I to argue that? It's always good to experiment and learn hands-on.

Record/(mat)/platter interface is THE #1 requirement in analog record reproduction. It is an area really poorly understood, and that is because people just do not realize how SMALL vibration is actually happening during the process. 

 

The maximum amplitude of the cutting is approximately 120 micrometers. That is VERY rarely encountered in practice; even the 90 micrometer levels are extremely rare in anything but top recordings. Most commercial releases are limited to about 70 micrometer - and yet more (over)prudent have been limitting VERTICAL excursion to below 50 micrometers.

 

What is usually "forgotten" - the stylus has no problems in resolving levels 80 dB below that - calulate that and you are in the

 http://online.unitconverterpro.com/conversion-tables/convert-group/factors.php?cat=length&unit=17 

world. No known real world execution of turntable can even start to dream about being that rifgid/stiff - in theory, it should obviously flex less than the minimum amplitude retrievable from the record. Nothing, no matter how $$$,  comes even close.

 

And then placing a record on just a few points/dots/lines/rings should be good enough ? The objective is to retieve information CONTAINED IN THE GROOVE - not on the record. In fact, any other portion of the groove/record not in the contact with the stylus is an enemy. It can pick up acoustic feedback from the speakers, it can AND DOES ( acceleration in the groove due to modulation in the treble from say 5-10 kHz can reach/exceed 2000 G - even assuming effective mass of the stylus only 0.25 mg,  that makes the force acting on the record>mat>platter in the order of half a kilogram unsettle the platter during normal reproduction.) cause the platter etc to resonate due to stymulus from the stylus; etc, etc; all of which are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE bigger effects than the minutest information contained in the recording in the groove - and these tiny signals are being masked due to these resonant  effects in the mechanical structure of TTs. In audiophile jargon - goodbye low level resolution, proper rendition of acoustic enviroment/soundstage, increase of ticks/pops - in short, records are capable of MUCH better resolution than normally heard/assumed. 

 

By far the best solution is vacuum hold down system for the record. It opens a very nasty can of worms - with now zero friction/damping between the record and mat/platter, platter has to take care od the energy being dumped in it by the stylus. Only very few commercial designs have tried to tackle these sour grapes; much fewer still have been able to achieve a really good sounding result. 

 

If all one is familiar with is say felt mat interface, it is akin to trying to swim on top of the water - without even getting properly wet. Points ( a la Transcriptors ), ribs ( a la Bang and Olufsen) , rings ( a la .... ) - none of them can support the record even remotely still enough, let alone offer the proper damping and energy removal. But as noted above, once this is taken care of, there is no longer any filtering of bearing noise ( one of the functions of felt mat ) - and one gets "the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth" - and the truth is not always the most flattering thing in the world...

 

It can be done, but as you might have guessed, not cheaply . Once having lived with a well implemented vacuum hold down system, it is impossible to return to a non vacuum hold cdown TT - no matter what. 

post #3068 of 3746
Yeah, right. Just try it an you will figure out how it does help records to put them on three dots. When you put record on three dots then no matter how far from flat your record is it always has exactly 3 points of support. The surface of record is not flat, but as you say grooves are in micrometer range, and the long hills and valleys on non-flat record are many times bigger than that. As an effect whole tonearm lifts on hills and falls on valleys, and stylus remains practically in the same distance all the time.

Honestly, what I did gain by doing this, was reduction of wow and flutter to a not (something that I can't hear), and then bass inter-modulation practically disappeared. In this configuration with Arkiv cartridge records sound very flat, and more modern ones sound mostly same as CD (yeah, mastering is crap). For example when I play soundtrack from Mission by Ennio Morricone, the compression is just the same sh** as on CD. However if I play some very old Russian records I inherited from my father, they sound amazing. There is a lot of pops and clicks on these old records, but dynamic range is just mind-blowing.
Edited by koolas - 5/4/14 at 7:50am
post #3069 of 3746
And again I agree. That is why I really dislike felt mats etc. I think the better the interface with the platter is, the more information you will retrieve (said the ex-Linn owner rolleyes.gif). I did not choose my Clearaudio Performance for nothing. Thick matching (same sound velocity to prevent reflections) platter, clamp and magneto-ceramic bearing.

Isolating the vinyl is an option though. Not a good option in my opinion, but it is an option that keeps resonant mass low, reflections much later and keeps the cartridge away from eventual magnetic platter. But in my opinion that is just shifting problems. Or, analogous to what you said, like trying to swim in the Dead Sea; very difficult when you float on top of the water when you cannot get your arm in deep to paddle. You become unstable.

I was just trying not to discourage koolas. He will find out sooner or later if he keeps on experimenting. And I was trying hard not to show my dislike for said DJ-TT. A DJ-TT has very different demands and the platter-vinyl interface is definitely not high on that priority-list. Just like creative 'free spirits' often have no patience for or understanding of physics.

[edit]
And what koolas said ^ is right (a plane is defined by 3 points), but... going uphill you increase styluspressure, and thus change the tracking angle and put the yoke out of optimal alignment from the coil/magnet. And going down is even worse. Tracking is worse and the stylus could damage the record bouncing around without support. I think flutter should be reduced by increasing the platter-mass combined with better contact. Wow will always remain on a warped lp; it's caused by speedincrease downhill and -decrease uphill. You cannot keep a steady stylus speed on a warped record unless you use a cartridge with powered wheels driving over the surface like a car.
Quote:
However if I play some very old Russian records I inherited from my father, they sound amazing. There is a lot of pops and clicks on these old records, but dynamic range is just mind-blowing.
I also have many old records, some from my father, some inherited from other family, most I bought myself. I also have many Melodia records. I like to play those old records with my Decca cart. But not all old records sound good. Some 10" from the '50 sound wonderful but others simply don't. Some mono records are amazing. But some need a woodglue peel cleaning to sound optimal. Like the Tchaikovsky record my dad played to death.
Edited by ]eep - 5/4/14 at 9:06am
post #3070 of 3746

If you have more than a few warped records, I see no reason to put up with that.

 

This has gotten a lot of good feedback on the vinylasylum.  http://vinylflat.com/index.html

 

Disclaimer:  I have never used one but if I had a significant number of warped records, I sure as hell would try it.

post #3071 of 3746

Clamps and coupling.  Yay.

post #3072 of 3746
@]eep: Your theory may sound very convincing, but in practice matters what you hear. You can call me deaf, but what I hear is definitely not what you are describing. I can tell one thing, I heard wow without my mod, and I don't hear it any more with this mod - as simple as that and I don't need any theory to prove that what I hear is what I hear. I am an engineer my self, and I understand physics well, and what you say may sound like it makes a lot of sense, but probably the problem is that you model of this problem in a wrong way. When you choose incorrect model, then all laws you apply sound good, but they don't match the actual result. This is what happens in the world of DACs, where engineers fight with audiophiles. Engineers want numbers, measurements, and audiophiles want PRAT, a concept that engineers don't understand. The thing that engineers forget is that there is no set of measurements that can tell whether something sounds good or not, while audiophile will tell you that straight away using his ears. I also understand you got an expensive table with all the fancy stuff, and it is against your instinct to believe that something cheaper may actually sound close to perfect. I haven't heard your setup, so I don't know how better is is from my sl1210 with vinyl buttons mod, but my current experience tells me that that sl1210 sounds at least as good as CD with higher quality records, even if they are wrapped.
post #3073 of 3746

 

post #3074 of 3746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androb View Post
 

 

Ahh a Dual ,my first decent TT I owned, very nice!


Edited by Quinto - 5/5/14 at 11:53am
post #3075 of 3746

Very nice looking Dual.  I would be proud of that.

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