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Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable - Page 190

post #2836 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

I normally spin the platter up with the last twist of the puck. It helps saving the belt from slipping. And I hardly ever turn the motor off. When I had a Linn I always kept the platter spinning while changing. This is quite easy with the felt mat.

I don't really know why this is (maybe because I keep modding my phonoamp to ever increasing heights), but I keep hearing hum from the motor/belt when I play. If I take off the belt and spin it by hand it's dead quiet. Now that I hear it I keep noticing it. I just can't unhear it. mad.gif


Hi ,,maybe I missed something but you have the Performance table, a step-up up and then the Jolida. Are you hearing noise at the speakers or at the actual table itself?

 

 

IF AT THE SPEAKERS...JD9 ..notorious for having noise unless modded...I think that is your issue. That is why I went with the Phonomena II phono stage. Dead quiet and no need for a step-up. Not sure why you are using a step up anyway. At .4mv, any MC phono stage will easily have enough gain.

 

Now if you are running the step up to the MC section of the JD9 ..egads...No wonder you hear noise..way to much gain.

 

SO tell me more...because you should hear nothing at the table..unless your ears is on the platter...:darthsmile:

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2837 of 3410
Yes, I have the otherwise excellent Clearaudio Performance. With the Koetsu to an MC1000 tranny from Audio Innovations to the JD9 to a Classic 16.2 (300B) to Genesis VI.

I realized I didn't say what I modded on the Jolida JD9. I just made a new very worthwhile mod. I have modded it like I haven't seen anyone do yet. It is very, very quiet now. It has oodles of gain on MC, but at the expense of SQ. Using the tranny into MM is much more quiet and fluid. I can also use the tranny into a (modded) Yaqin MS22b. Same problem.
Now while I was writing I got an epiphany.... I had the grounding wire of the Koetsu on the Yaqin and the leads to the Jolida. Turnes out 'Ockhams Razor' proved itself once again. Or Murphy's Law. It was the most predictable and ubiquitous bad grounding. So check, check, check again. Funny how the groundloop only occurs when the needle is actually on the record, that had me warped.

Ahhhhh problem solved. redface.gif

So, to get back to the JD9 mods...
I made the 'low-out' a real low-out option that works much, much better and is a real option. Under the motto 'less is more' it is now a tubeless 'low' option from the point straight behind the last opamp (without the 3.3uF output cap). I bypassed in total; the inputboard, 1 cap, 1 opamp, 1 big 5k R (substituted for a 680R +diff value filtercap), 1 cap, 1 big 10k R, 1 doubletriode and 1 outputcap. Now I can compare the new straight solid state tubeless low output with the regular tubed high output. And I can compare at the flick of a switch.



Gain
So what happened to the gain? Well, where I put my dac at volume 10 (full), I put the original JD9 on 3, after the mod 'minus 1 opamp' on 4 and the new straight output on 6. Leaving plenty of clean headroom.

Sound
But to come to the point: how does it sound? Really dead-quiet. No more tubeswoosh and static trickle. It sounds tight, controlled, focused, spacious. I can't say much yet about stage-depth and width. I need some more quiet listening for that. But it has a blacker backdrop. The overall frequency-curve is the same but it sounds more controlled. Tubes are nice if you can make a nice short signal path, but I don't need them as a gimmick 'tubey sauce'/ harmonic distortion.

The fun part is: I can now use the same output jacks as input jacks for my NOS dac so I can use the tubes outputstage as an extra gainstage. At the moment not at the same time (obviously). I'm still testing and since I don't want to drill some random extra holes I use the same jacks that were rather useless before.
Edited by ]eep - 1/27/14 at 5:08pm
post #2838 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

Yes, I have the otherwise excellent Clearaudio Performance. With the Koetsu to an MC1000 tranny from Audio Innovations to the JD9 to a Classic 16.2 (300B) to Genesis VI.

I realized I didn't say what I modded on the Jolida JD9. I just made a new very worthwhile mod. I have modded it like I haven't seen anyone do yet. It is very, very quiet now. It has oodles of gain on MC, but at the expense of SQ. Using the tranny into MM is much more quiet and fluid. I can also use the tranny into a (modded) Yaqin MS22b. Same problem.
Now while I was writing I got an epiphany.... I had the grounding wire of the Koetsu on the Yaqin and the leads to the Jolida. Turnes out 'Ockhams Razor' proved itself once again. Or Murphy's Law. It was the most predictable and ubiquitous bad grounding. So check, check, check again. Funny how the groundloop only occurs when the needle is actually on the record, that had me warped.

Ahhhhh problem solved. redface.gif

So, to get back to the JD9 mods...
I made the 'low-out' a real low-out option that works much, much better and is a real option. Under the motto 'less is more' it is now a tubeless 'low' option from the point straight behind the last opamp (without the 3.3uF output cap). I bypassed in total; the inputboard, 1 cap, 1 opamp, 1 big 5k R (substituted for a 680R +diff value filtercap), 1 cap, 1 big 10k R, 1 doubletriode and 1 outputcap. Now I can compare the new straight solid state tubeless low output with the regular tubed high output. And I can compare at the flick of a switch.



Gain
So what happened to the gain? Well, where I put my dac at volume 10 (full), I put the original JD9 on 3, after the mod 'minus 1 opamp' on 4 and the new straight output on 6. Leaving plenty of clean headroom.

Sound
But to come to the point: how does it sound? Really dead-quiet. No more tubeswoosh and static trickle. It sounds tight, controlled, focused, spacious. I can't say much yet about stage-depth and width. I need some more quiet listening for that. But it has a blacker backdrop. The overall frequency-curve is the same but it sounds more controlled. Tubes are nice if you can make a nice short signal path, but I don't need them as a gimmick 'tubey sauce'/ harmonic distortion.

The fun part is: I can now use the same output jacks as input jacks for my NOS dac so I can use the tubes outputstage as an extra gainstage. At the moment not at the same time (obviously). I'm still testing and since I don't want to drill some random extra holes I use the same jacks that were rather useless before.


Ahhh..so

 

1) You know what you were doing

2) It was a ground loop (arrgggg...hate ground issues)

 

I love tubes - I love tubes because no other simple interchangeable part can have such a dramatic impact on sound...without spending boatloads of money...BTW..NIce Sprague caps

post #2839 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaffer View Post

The vibration from the motor has to go somewhere. Some designs mount the motor solidly to the chassis, allowing it to act as a vibration sink of sorts, while isolating the plinth from those elements. Others use an opposite approach, and then there's everything in between. If the plinth is isolated, for example, the motor vibrations will still (likely) reach the stylus. My current 'table is similar. So, how did I lessen the noise to the point where it's virtually inaudible? First step, drain the vibration from the motor housing. This can be done mechanically by using something as simple as a firmly attached spike (at the bottom of the housing) resting on a proper material. This, with returning of the suspension yielded excellent results (in my case). Dampening the motor housing, I found, to be difficult in terms of effectiveness. YMMV

Something like that.

 

I changed to asinchronous DC servo controlled motor ( by now rare/extinct Papst, known from Harman Kardon and 2nd gen  Oracle tables ) ages ago because of mechanical noise introduced by 24 pole synchronous AC motor. The even more extreme use of dead quiet motors for belt drive TTs is now by Funk Firm - motors so quiet they can be mounted on the "subchassis" no longer requiring spring etc decoupling of subchassis from the main plinth where the motor in AR/Thorens/Ariston/Linn & similar designs is mounted - and is STILL audible.

 

This problem returned with the renewed interest in Tesla NC470/NAD5120 table - synchronous motor belt driven sprung subchassis design. It exists in at least two versions, only the latest one I unfortunately did not manage to get yet having adjustable springs for the subchassis, allowing for sort of decent way to get the subchassis floating correctly while eliminating motor and structural feedback reasonably well. Otherwise, it is Linn Spring Doctors to the power of X ( woodoo, sorcery, fairies, witchcraft, ocult sciencies ) in order to get it performing as it should. Repeatable only when Hell freezes over.

 

It also can be belt - I found that sometimes an old(er) (over)stretched belt is in the end better than new one in this rumble transmitting regard. 

 

A properly done DD table would be quietly chuckling in a corner while getting amused by these belt drive stories...

post #2840 of 3410

AS ..but what is audible ? If one were to measure it would probably show however; not really sure it would be audible per se..and considering the flaws in the medium itself, I am much more concerned with mastering and pressing than motor noise. What motor noise I have is inaudible to me (Clearaudio Concept) but bad pressings..YIKES ..too many. Got to try a Sheffield Labs direct to disk recently - Harry James...wow..was like being in a club...

 

Now some tables DO exhibit way too much motor noise (I wont name them for fear of the wrath of the owners)...

 

Sometimes we just have to ENJOY the music for what it is...LOL

post #2841 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcorob View Post
 

AS ..but what is audible ? If one were to measure it would probably show however; not really sure it would be audible per se..and considering the flaws in the medium itself, I am much more concerned with mastering and pressing than motor noise. What motor noise I have is inaudible to me (Clearaudio Concept) but bad pressings..YIKES ..too many. Got to try a Sheffield Labs direct to disk recently - Harry James...wow..was like being in a club...

 

Now some tables DO exhibit way too much motor noise (I wont name them for fear of the wrath of the owners)...

 

Sometimes we just have to ENJOY the music for what it is...LOL

There is perhaps 0.00000........0XY % real world pressings that challenge the performance of better tables in rumble.

 

Still, after you get to listen to really quiet ones, like Versa Dynamics tables ( air bearing platter, vacuum disk suction system, air bearing linear arm ) - it is still WOW. Unfortunately, it is hard to come by - even if 5 figure price is no obstacle. I had the luck/curse to know it inside out, it is a mind boggling unit, both in performance (when fully operational) and in maintenance ( the cost of normal wear & tear parts is MORE than average cost of a TT in this thread ... ). And no, I do not own it.

 

What is audible? In principle - ANYTHING that should not have been there in the first place. Please wait till CH23 gets his DC powering of his Technics SL-7 up and running; it is "nothing" wrong with stock SL-7 - untill you hear all the schiit introduced by its internal power supply removed. I hope he will comment - in his own words, I do not want to hint at anything thus influencing his impressions. But it should be enlightening.

 

I ALWAYS listen for music first sound second. The first piece of "audio gear" in my life, which put an indellible stamp on me in my forming years, say from age of 3 and up, was http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szarotka_(radioodbiornik) of my late grandmother. I forgot this thing did have the possibility of either AC or DC operation; as it was on practically whole day long, tuned to a Radio 3 with classical music, it was simply too expensive to run it on batteries - I re-learned of this AC/DC fact from the link above...

 

But I will always remember great music discovered trough it, imperfect as it was/is, and will always be grateful to my grandma for having it around.

post #2842 of 3410
update: as I listened again, I did still notice hum from the motor through the belt. Like I said: once you notice a certain noise or distortion it is impossible to 'unhear' it. I had the same thing with my old hunchback TV, once I heard the distortion from the resonating plastic housing I couldn stand to listen to that tv sound. It's strange how I never noticed it before, but I keep hearing the faint hum. That also means my phonoamp is really quiet.
I have one trump in my sleeve though; with a ringmat (paper disc with cork rings) I hear even less hum. And I have a different belt. Maybe I'll go to the fishing-store to pick up some thin nylon fishing-line.

Edit: ok, now I've had it with this stupid problem. 2 sides ago I still had considerable hum. And now I'm sure it is the DC motor. It was not touching the plinth, but leaving the needle in the run-out groove I fiddled a bit with the motor unit. I pressid it down forcefully, held it in the air, slanted a little bit... hey! Hum gone. Straight again; hum. Twiddle, tweak... I replaced in on a wooden coaster with 4 pieces of foam as feet to decouple and raise it slightly. Just like I had it before I noticed the problem. And lo and behold, now it's really gone. Maybe the axle of the motor or some bearings aren't playfree.
Edited by ]eep - 1/29/14 at 6:15pm
post #2843 of 3410

Showing Groovetracer Delrin platter on my RP6.  No mat required as label area is sunken in and VTA is the same as stock glass platter with mat.  Extra circumference for better flywheel effect and five ounces heavier than stock.  Not shown is the Reference sub-platter for RP6.  Groovetracer products mimic Swiss precision.  First impression, livelier presentation.  Perhaps more later.

 

AppleMark

post #2844 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post
 

Showing Groovetracer Delrin platter on my RP6.  No mat required as label area is sunken in and VTA is the same as stock glass platter with mat.  Extra circumference for better flywheel effect and five ounces heavier than stock.  Not shown is the Reference sub-platter for RP6.  Groovetracer products mimic Swiss precision.  First impression, livelier presentation.  Perhaps more later.

 

AppleMark

I am eager to hear your impression AFTER the "new toy syndrome" subsides. These Grovetracers look mighty tempting, also for DIY building the table from scratch. If the tolerances from spec sheets are indeed reality, it must be awewsome - probably only a good video could do platter(s) of  this precision true justice. Best ones are "optically perfect" - you can not see whether it is turning - or it is stationery.

 

On the wrong side of the Pond, in my case at least - add $hipping and cu$tom$ dutie$ for €urope and it is alogether different baŁgame than in the States...

post #2845 of 3410

Thanks AS.  I don't do video but looking directly level with the platter, I see no movement when spinning.

post #2846 of 3410

 

 

 

LP12/Ekos2/Cirkus/Lingo2/Lyra Clavis Dc/Linto

as you can Ernie is quite a big cat!

post #2847 of 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by KT66 View Post
 

 

 

 

LP12/Ekos2/Cirkus/Lingo2/Lyra Clavis Dc/Linto

as you can Ernie is quite a big cat!

The best *accessory" for the LP12 ever - without likelihood being assigned serial # to boot. As a cat lover, I might suggest getting a bit larger footprint table - at least a SOTA sized "cushion for Ernie" :wink_face: .

 

On a more serious note - how do you like the Clavis DC, particularly its tonal balance? Quite a few earlier Lyras went trough my hands, but I still feel the # 0001, the original Clavis, to be the most well mannered of them all. I found Clavis DC a bit too bright at times and less smooth than its predecessor. No experience with present generation of Lyras.

 

And please give Ernie a nice pat on my behalf !


Edited by analogsurviver - 1/30/14 at 2:28pm
post #2848 of 3410
Ernie says thanks, I moved from a super smooth Troika and l love the extra detail from the DC, it has since had an ESC retip and it was bright at first , but now settled down.
post #2849 of 3410

Just got the vinyl 2013 re-issue of the 1994 re-mix of the Bladerunner 
soundtrack by Vangelis. For vinyl lovers who are also into sub-bass, 
I can recommend this space music type recording. I'm not a big 
Vangelis fan but this may be his best with no corny tunes to suffer 
through.

 

Edit:  Thanks to MorbidToaster for the suggestion.

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark


Edited by bbophead - 2/11/14 at 11:07am
post #2850 of 3410

I have the Redbook version of that album and enjoy it quite a bit. That might be my next modern vinyl purchase. Nice find!

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