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post #2581 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by parbaked View Post
 

Curious to know what phono pre-amp you plan to use with your TT?

Will you use the Shindos or is it the big Sansui for vinyl?

 

Will use both for vinyl, both for digital. The Shindo Pre has a Moving Magnet Phono Stage. 

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2582 of 3340

AppleMark

 

New release, recorded in analog (1/4" tape!)

post #2583 of 3340
I agree with Dosley01 too in regards to choices. I suppose the reason why you ask for MM is that this is limited by your phonostage. You don't really have a preference for MM other than that? If not, might I suggest thinking about an MC-transformer? IMO this gives a better sound and gives you a wider choicerange. If your budget is $1k you should be able to find a nice combination of 2ndH tranny plus very good MC. This would expand your range of options very, very much.
Here's an example that isn't expensive (under $100). This one is actually new with NOS trannies.

Or a used Denon AU-300LC LC-OFC Step-Up Transformer. I don't know where the price is going, but it's from the US.
Or even a pair by Yamamoto soundcraft. More expensive but well worth it I think.
There is a lot more on offer than there has been in years I must say. And reasonably priced too. Not just >$1-2k.

Here's a verbose explanation that is probably better than I can explain. My experience: a step-up in front of a good (tube) MM sounds better than any MC-phonoamp I heard. And a low-output MC sounds better than most high-output MC/MM. I bought an Audio Innovations MC1000 about 20 y ago and I am still very happy with it. It was really expensive then but I then it doesn't deteriorate, it lasts a lifetime and many cartridges.

There is the matter of impedance matching. I have on my tranny two options high/low. I can hear a difference but I never really had the idea that either one was really wrong. So I wouldn't worry to much about that.
I initially bought it to be able to play an Audio Technica OC9 (upgrading from a very nice Milltek [Kiseki] Aurora High output MC). Still a cart that I heartedly recommend, or the similat AT33PTG. After that one broke down (after a really long time, all through the '90 well into '00) I temporarily went back to The Aurora which couldn't really make me happy anymore. I bought a DV Karat 17D3 MKII and again, bliss. I've used a Kiseki Blue on it and now I'm using it with a Koetsu Urushi. After I bought my current Jolida JD9 I thought I would try without it since it is really good on both MM as MC. But it makes such a difference! It is really so much better with step-up>MM than >MC that I took out the whole input-adaptorboard an fed it straight into the input of the JD9 (55dB amplified by the JD9 instead of 85 or 95dB). This is a lot quieter and sounds smoother, faster, more open and dynamic. Just alround spectacular.

This will increase your scope to include FI
ZYX R100-02
Dynavector 20X2L Low Output or DV Karat 17D3
Yamamoto Soundcraft YC-03S Wooden body (ok, just out of reach)
Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III, AT-33PTG/II, ...EV
Shelter 501-2
several (modified) Denon carts (DL103, A100, S1, Zu) Look at this: DL103 /w Graphite body, Boron cantilever and Shibata tip


Or whatever nice you might run into... biggrin.gif

PS I found a site that does retip service and can replace with sapphire cantilever + micro-ridge stylus. (cantilever+tip €260+€30 international s+h). It looks like this:
eajjhjaj.jpg
Combined with his wood body (€105) a modified Denon DL103 (which is pretty cheap) would look something like this:
IMG_2350.JPG



Sorry for the large pictures, I don't know how to scale them whem linked
Edited by ]eep - 11/8/13 at 4:56pm
post #2584 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

I agree with Dosley01 too in regards to choices. I suppose the reason why you ask for MM is that this is limited by your phonostage. You don't really have a preference for MM other than that? If not, might I suggest thinking about an MC-transformer? IMO this gives a better sound and gives you a wider choicerange. If your budget is $1k you should be able to find a nice combination of 2ndH tranny plus very good MC. This would expand your range of options very, very much.
Here's an example that isn't expensive (under $100). This one is actually new with NOS trannies.

Or a used Denon AU-300LC LC-OFC Step-Up Transformer. I don't know where the price is going, but it's from the US.
Or even a pair by Yamamoto soundcraft. More expensive but well worth it I think.
There is a lot more on offer than there has been in years I must say. And reasonably priced too. Not just >$1-2k.

Here's a verbose explanation that is probably better than I can explain. My experience: a step-up in front of a good (tube) MM sounds better than any MC-phonoamp I heard. And a low-output MC sounds better than most high-output MC/MM. I bought an Audio Innovations MC1000 about 20 y ago and I am still very happy with it. It was really expensive then but I then it doesn't deteriorate, it lasts a lifetime and many cartridges.

There is the matter of impedance matching. I have on my tranny two options high/low. I can hear a difference but I never really had the idea that either one was really wrong. So I wouldn't worry to much about that.
I initially bought it to be able to play an Audio Technica OC9 (upgrading from a very nice Milltek [Kiseki] Aurora High output MC). Still a cart that I heartedly recommend, or the similat AT33PTG. After that one broke down (after a really long time, all through the '90 well into '00) I temporarily went back to The Aurora which couldn't really make me happy anymore. I bought a DV Karat 17D3 MKII and again, bliss. I've used a Kiseki Blue on it and now I'm using it with a Koetsu Urushi. After I bought my current Jolida JD9 I thought I would try without it since it is really good on both MM as MC. But it makes such a difference! It is really so much better with step-up>MM than >MC that I took out the whole input-adaptorboard an fed it straight into the input of the JD9 (55dB amplified by the JD9 instead of 85 or 95dB). This is a lot quieter and sounds smoother, faster, more open and dynamic. Just alround spectacular.

This will increase your scope to include FI
ZYX R100-02
Dynavector 20X2L Low Output or DV Karat 17D3
Yamamoto Soundcraft YC-03S Wooden body (ok, just out of reach)
Audio-Technica AT-OC9/III, AT-33PTG/II, ...EV
Shelter 501-2
several (modified) Denon carts (DL103, A100, S1, Zu) Look at this: DL103 /w Graphite body, Boron cantilever and Shibata tip


Or whatever nice you might run into... biggrin.gif

PS I found a site that does retip service and can replace with sapphire cantilever + micro-ridge stylus. (cantilever+tip €260+€30 international s+h). It looks like this:
eajjhjaj.jpg
Combined with his wood body (€105) a modified Denon DL103 (which is pretty cheap) would look something like this:
IMG_2350.JPG



Sorry for the large pictures, I don't know how to scale them whem linked

Very good post. I like the graphite bodied DL103/boron/Shibata the best - although I first read abouit it here, this must be one of the best bangs for the buck in carts today.

 

However, I DO NOT like transformers anywhere in the audio signal path. It is true that preamps capable of equaling and/or bettering them do not grow on trees, but they can be at least DIYed. Transformers are also extremely impedance sensitive, meaning you change the MC cart to one with sufficiently different impedance, that means change of transformer too. Not exactly my idea of flexibility.

 

MM vs MC involves things that can sway the scales one way or another. MMs generally make mincemeat from MCsin tracking ability, particularly in the all important midrange and treble. Being generally higher compliance designs, they have always enjoyed and still do supremacy in bass tracking.

 

There were/used to be VERY few MCs capable of tracking capabilities comparable to say Shure V15 series - which is NOT the pinnacle in tracking abilitiy. One was Ortofon MC 2000 - with 0.05mV output and too massive body weight for the high compliance necessary to be able to track in the same league, requiring absolutely the lowest mass arm, in practice that means SME III. Another was Denon DL1000A, discontinued as well. Today that might be Denon DL-S1, a downscaled 1000A - if you can still get it somewhere. There is always Van den Hul Colibri high compliance version - if 6k+Euro will not make too big a dent in your audio budget.

 

The music genres mentioned by SO are tough on tracking - period. A carefully adjusted and loaded quality MM stands much better chance of playing those genres satisfactory at about the price mentioned. 

post #2585 of 3340
I have a Denon DL-S1 and it is a terrific cartridge - I'm surprised it doesn't get more love than it does. By current MC cartridge prices it's not expensive and it absolutely crushes many "popular" MCs that cost more.

Also, IMHO, the DL-S1 is significantly better sounding overall than the Ortofon 2m Black, which I own and very much like. They are actually similarly priced, although you need an LOMC phono stage for the DL-S1, of course.
post #2586 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

I have a Denon DL-S1 and it is a terrific cartridge - I'm surprised it doesn't get more love than it does. By current MC cartridge prices it's not expensive and it absolutely crushes many "popular" MCs that cost more.

Also, IMHO, the DL-S1 is significantly better sounding overall than the Ortofon 2m Black, which I own and very much like. They are actually similarly priced, although you need an LOMC phono stage for the DL-S1, of course.

I was hoping for you to chime in. I know it is a terrific cart, I own its poor relative, DL 304. It also punches far above its weight. It tracks flawlessly at 1.4 gram.

 

DL-S1 is the same kind of b***h to amplify as the DL 304 - 40 ohms internal resistance, 0.15 mV output = trouble with anything but superb preamps.

And it is a high compliance cart, even by MM standard, let alone MC. Low mass arm required to stay out of trouble, if you *insist* on 4 screw mounting, best to use are PLASTIC screws once upon a time available with the purchase of Shure, Stanton and Micro Acoustics cartridges. Otherwise you compound the mass/compliance issue in ANY arm.

 

That is why it does not get more love - few are capable or willing to cater to its requirements. It is not an easy partner to tame/live with. But once satisfied, cart thanks back - many times over.

post #2587 of 3340
Indeed, and that's why the DL-S1 pairs so nicely with the Denon DP-59L I use it on - the straight tone arm wand works well, when one uses the Q- damping feature of the 59L to tweak things and get them just right.

And since this is a picture thread biggrin.gif

post #2588 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Indeed, and that's why the DL-S1 pairs so nicely with the Denon DP-59L I use it on - the straight tone arm wand works well, when one uses the Q- damping feature of the 59L to tweak things and get them just right.

And since this is a picture thread biggrin.gif

I thought DL-S1 would reside on your Denon Q-damping deck ( about as ideal combination as possible ). But I envy that Renaissance LP ...

post #2589 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

I thought DL-S1 would reside on your Denon Q-damping deck ( about as ideal combination as possible ). But I envy that Renaissance LP ...

Thanks - it's a goodie biggrin.gif
post #2590 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Very good post. I like the graphite bodied DL103/boron/Shibata the best - although I first read abouit it here, this must be one of the best bangs for the buck in carts today.
...
Another was Denon DL1000A, discontinued as well. Today that might be Denon DL-S1, a downscaled 1000A - if you can still get it somewhere.

The music genres mentioned by SO are tough on tracking - period. A carefully adjusted and loaded quality MM stands much better chance of playing those genres satisfactory at about the price mentioned. 

DL-S1 is the same kind of b***h to amplify as the DL 304 - 40 ohms internal resistance, 0.15 mV output = trouble with anything but superb preamps.

That isn't much trouble. It costs $800.
$T2eC16d,!wsE9suwywDJBRjFGm)oUQ~~60_57.JPG

I don't think I would have any trouble with that. Not at all. My DV is about the same and I only need to turn up my volume to 3 where my dac needs 10. And that is with my Jolida JD9 at it's lowest amplification (55dB

I don't really ever remember having trouble with tracking other than with my Kiseki Blue from 198x (? vdH retipped in 1987). ATOC9 tracked like a champ, so does the DV Karat D17 and so does the Koetsu.
Quote:
However, I DO NOT like transformers anywhere in the audio signal path. It is true that preamps capable of equaling and/or bettering them do not grow on trees, but they can be at least DIYed. Transformers are also extremely impedance sensitive, meaning you change the MC cart to one with sufficiently different impedance, that means change of transformer too. Not exactly my idea of flexibility.
This part I don't agree on, but just from what little experience I have. I like passive components because they don't deteriorate the signal (much). My Audio Innovations tranny is top of the line, with silver coils and impedance switch. So maybe I have never heard any of the negatives that you speak about. But I doubt a simpler transformer would do that much worse. Like I said, when I use a different impedance neither sounds really wrong. Its just like using the 4 or 8 Ohm taps on my tubeamp but then about half the effect. It's more like a nuance of 'bigger, looser' vs 'narrower, tighter'.
If I wouldn't have the step-up transformer I think I would not be as avid a LO-MC fan. Nor vinyl fan.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Denon also has always made step-up transformers too. (same Ebay seller)
$(KGrHqR,!r!FIybzvb-eBSQ!FBv)rg~~60_57.JPG
$(KGrHqN,!nsFHf15mpcWBR-frYNO-Q~~60_57.JPG
Supposed best match with the DL-S1
Specifications Boosting ratio: 1:13 Load impedance: 47k Ohms Frequency range: 10Hz - 80kHz Size: W150×H70×D175mm Mass: 3.2kg
$(KGrHqV,!oMFHjf9fJu)BR-fg+KVsg~~60_57.JPG

One more small one from the innards of the Denon AU-1000 MC Step Up Transformer. Looks impressive.
$T2eC16JHJI!E9qSO8D,bBRkEt3Hlow~~60_1.JPG
Edited by ]eep - 11/9/13 at 8:20am
post #2591 of 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post


That isn't much trouble. It costs $800.
$T2eC16d,!wsE9suwywDJBRjFGm)oUQ~~60_57.JPG

I don't think I would have any trouble with that. Not at all. My DV is about the same and I only need to turn up my volume to 3 where my dac needs 10. And that is with my Jolida JD9 at it's lowest amplification (55dB
I don't really ever remember having trouble with tracking other than with my Kiseki Blue from 198x (? vdH retipped in 1987). ATOC9 tracked like a champ, so does the DV Karat D17 and so does the Koetsu.
This part I don't agree on, but just from what little experience I have. I like passive components because they don't deteriorate the signal (much). My Audio Innovations tranny is top of the line, with silver coils and impedance switch. So maybe I have never heard any of the negatives that you speak about. But I doubt a simpler transformer would do that much worse. Like I said, when I use a different impedance neither sounds really wrong. Its just like using the 4 or 8 Ohm taps on my tubeamp but then about half the effect. It's more like a nuance of 'bigger, looser' vs 'narrower, tighter'.
If I wouldn't have the step-up transformer I think I would not be as avid a LO-MC fan. Nor vinyl fan.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Denon also has always made step-up transformers too. (same Ebay seller)
$(KGrHqR,!r!FIybzvb-eBSQ!FBv)rg~~60_57.JPG
$(KGrHqN,!nsFHf15mpcWBR-frYNO-Q~~60_57.JPG
Supposed best match with the DL-S1
Specifications Boosting ratio: 1:13 Load impedance: 47k Ohms Frequency range: 10Hz - 80kHz Size: W150×H70×D175mm Mass: 3.2kg
$(KGrHqV,!oMFHjf9fJu)BR-fg+KVsg~~60_57.JPG

One more small one from the innards of the Denon AU-1000 MC Step Up Transformer. Looks impressive.
$T2eC16JHJI!E9qSO8D,bBRkEt3Hlow~~60_1.JPG

Denon made, in spite of many MC transformers, HA-500 and HA-1000 headamps - or, since this is head-fi and this name may puzzle some readers -

pre-preamplifiers. These are even more sought after than their transformers.

 

But, if you really must use transformers, there is a MUCH better way. 1 ohm internal resistance carts - or even lower - that really can take advantage of transformers, their noise contribution, etc. Trouble is that transformation besides voltage also steps up the input impedance - squared. 40 ohm of Denon carts is squared 1600 ohm - and that is the thermal noise of a resistor any phono stage sees. This thermal noise is far greater than input noise of decent phono stages, even tube designs. 1 ohm squared is still 1 ohm - or 1/1600th of noise presented to the input of the phono stage. As the textbooks are fond of saying, conversion of that to dBs is left as an exercise to the reader.

 

So - why do you think Benz makes TR cartridge? Sumasumarum, amplified either by iron or good silicon it appreciably improves upon Ruby/Ebony level.

1 ohm internal impedance, 0.1 mV output voltage - properly amplified, quiter than in the graveyard ... with the dynamics to wake the dead - something Denon 40 ohms carts will always have trouble with.

post #2592 of 3340
Can I give you a tip Ananalog surviver? If you quote me, pls delete the pictures from the quote. This should make it more readable. If anyone knows how I can make linked pictures appear smaller I would be happy too.

So I suppose my carts were just lucky? ATOC9 with 12 Ohms, Kiseki 5 Ohm and Koetsu Urushi with 5 Ohms? The DV Karat D17 has 38 Ohms but I didn't really notice any negative effects. It was dead quiet. So is my current Urushi and the rest. It did have a different soundcharacter but that is IMO the character of the cart itself. Very neutral, tight bass, very fast, VERY dynamic.

The Dynavector DV 20x2L would also be no trouble with 0.3mV at 5 Ohms. This is actually the one I recommend, and the price will allow for a good step-up for a combined price of $1,000.
DV-20X2L_1.jpg
I think I need to elaborate of the pro's and cons of the HO vs LO. The following I translate loosely on the review in dutch of the DV20X2L.
The high output has an easy to amplify 2.8mV. This is enough for MM but will give a slightly lower output than normal real MM carts. Some might consider it just a bit too low.
The advantage of the low output
(translated, not my opinion, not even a 'reason' per sé IMO) is that you can use a high grade preamp or even a seperate MC-transformer that often has a positive effect on the sound. Is is a more expensive solution but it will yield better results. (here it comes, the reason why) The mass of the coils in a low-putput MC is considerably lower than those of a high-output model that simply needs more windings to generate the higher voltage. Because of this a low output model will generally give a more refined sound, with more speed, dynamics and detail. That is why the more expensive models are only sold in low-output models. The difference is significant enough for the prospective buyer to make a definite choice.
Source for those of you that read Dutch.

I tested the Karat D17 with and without transformer on MM and MC on my Jolida JD9 (which is excellent on both) but is was no contest. Step-up into MM sounds more open, more dynamic, better bass. Just all-round better. Straight into MC sounds in comparison more like a transistoramp than tubelike. I'm not quite sure how the JD9 amplifies the different signals (if it uses extra opamps for MC or just a lower amplification factor on all 6 opamps, I suppose the latter). I still have to do some more digging in the diagram, and replace some couplingcaps between those opamps.
So, even though I do not have the technical insight you have (yet? working on it) my personal experience is that I am very, very, very happy with my step-up transformer. Well worth it's steep price.
Edited by ]eep - 11/10/13 at 12:49pm
post #2593 of 3340

Hi all, I've been upgrading my Rega P3-24 bit by bit in the past weeks so I thought I would share some pictures. I've got the double pulley mod, a metal sub-platter, upgraded sub-platter bearing, counterweight. Besides the standard felt I also tried a cork mat but have settled on an Acrylic one. I also made an isolation plinth for it with adjustable feet to get everything exactly level. I have added some Sorbonne under the TT feet and 'spike shoes' for extra isolation. I've got a Michell/Trichord Delphini phono-stage (upgraded from a phono-mini) which was a huge improvement. The tone arm has a Goldring 2200 cartrage on it right now. I was going to upgrade it to a Goldring erocia LX which I got 2nd hand but sadly I had to return it to the ebay seller as it had a bent cantilever :-(. Over all I'm very happy with the way it sounds right now though. I got the metal sub-platter and double pulley mod from a guy in Argentina on ebay who makes and sells them for a very good price. The sub platter in particular is of high quality. My counterweight is also off ebay (a guy from England somewhere made it) and is made out of brass. I have also been quite happy with it. I paid 20 Pounds which is much better than some of the branded ones out there.

 

post #2594 of 3340

The pictures are excellent.  I'll bet you're pleased with the improvement in sound.

post #2595 of 3340

This marks the 3rd time I've tried the Rogue Ares phono stage, and now finally (paired with Bob's Devices 1131 SUT -- add me to the list of folks that likes a SUT w/ tube MM stage) it perfectly integrates together and gels with the last couple of major upgrades (the Clearaudio Innovation TT, Graham Phantom arm, and Tannoy Canterbury speakers). Not too bad, considering it's the most affordable component in that system. It all sounds GREAT together, after a lot of pain trying to nail down those last details to balance everything out. Now the (ever optimistic) plan is to not change anything major again for at least a couple years. I need record weight & ruing clamp, but those doesn't count as "major" changes. 

 

The Ares' lid is off in this pic (easy tube access):

 


Edited by mulveling - 11/10/13 at 4:17pm
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