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Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable - Page 133

post #1981 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.

 

Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.

 

Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.

Dust covers as generally known and used behave exactly like you stated. The only dust cover I know of that actually has a chance of improving the sound when in use during playback is that from the original Kuzma Stabi and Kuzma Stabi 2 - solid wooden frame and a thick glass on top. That "dust cover" alone weighs about the same as an entry level turntable. 

 

You can make a very simple test to find if your dustcover is actually transmitting airborne vibration - specially as this is head-fi, where people should have headphones and not hate them to death as some do. Place a record on the STATIONARY table and lower the stylus in the groove, at normal listening volume.  Listen with headphones. You can tap with finger on the dustcover - what you will hear is not likely to please you. You can extend that test - but now instead of tapping use some music played at normal listening level over loudspeaker and listen for the result on turntable with closed or IEM headphones. That is a bit more difficult to accomodate, but the easiest way is to listen to the phono preamp directly into your headphone amp while playing say CD over speakers - as preamps with full tape loop/dubbing are getting rare these days. That should convince anyone that dust covers act like giant microphones and are specially detrimental with decks without sprung sub chassis, where the vibrations picked up by the dust cover are directly injected into the plinth. 

 

I do use a few records in "never clean it" mode, to test TTs how well they can supress things they never should be there in the first place. Really great analog will be relatively very quiet in the groove, lesser will noise, tick and pop far more. Although great for such purpose, not cleaning records should be avoided whenever possible.


Edited by analogsurviver - 7/16/13 at 12:48am
post #1982 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipilot227 View Post

How old is your P2? Mine is 5 years old, but it had a different stock platter (tapered MDF, painted black like the rest of the table). Is yours a stock or upgraded platter? I use a P3 glass platter.

 

 

Yeah, I usually leave mine off when playing. I was of a similar opinion. I used to use a record weight, which wouldn't fit with the cover closed, so I usually just remove it out of habit. If the resonance theory is accurate, it wouldn't be wise as my speakers have 15" woofers biggrin.gif

 

His idea about cleaning records though is bull-poo. I don't want a dirty record anywhere near my 2M Blue stylus.

I bought mine in 2005 with the MDF (it's actually HDF - high density fiberboard) platter and then scored a glass platter from a P5 - same platter as yours.

 

I like how Gandy says your needle will scoop up the dust for you!

He's really saying don't torque the motor/belt by using the motor to turn record while cleaning and putting too much pressure on record. 

So i do wipe my records before putting them on the TT instead of cleaning while on the platter.

post #1983 of 3640

Didn't Linn have the same no clean philosophy?

post #1984 of 3640

Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?

popcorn.gif

post #1985 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent One View Post

Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?

popcorn.gif

They thought it was not necessary so the benefit was not wasting time doing it.  Heh.

post #1986 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent One View Post

Curiously, what were the benefits claimed by not cleaning records?

popcorn.gif

I think the "benefits" are twofold:

1) NOT using your Rega to clean records e.g. clean on something other than your TT, benefit being no strain on motor/belt by friction more than just the stylus on record and

2) belief that not all solvents sold are not necessarily good for one's vinyl.

I clean with a "SpinClean" when I first get an album and then use a Hunt brush, but not while LP is on the TT.

 

These are the actual operating hints from Rega:

 

 

Hints and Tips using your Turntable

 

Mount the turntable on a rigid, level surface. A light shelf or

turntable support screwed to a wall or in an alcove i s ideal.

Avoid mount ing on hol low or heavy cabinets or anything

mounted on a wooden floor.

 

Try to keep the lid closed while playing the records. This will

prevent dust falling on to the records and make cleaning

unnecessary. There may also be a sonic improvement.

 

Don't use any record cleaner that works while the record is

playing or any cleaners that use water or solvents. I f you

keep your records stored in their sleeves, avoid touching the

playing surfaces, play with the lid down and keep all water

and fluids away, cleaning should not be necessary. Don't

worry about visible dust on the record surface, this is

brushed aside by the stylus and any that collects on the stylus

can be easily blown away. In general, record cleaning is

overdone and one should not believe all the claims made by

record cleaner manufacturers.

 

Leave the turntable running during a record playing session.

Switch on before the session and only switch off after you

have finished.

 

Don't lift the centre hub out from the main bearing. The bearing

i s factory assembled with a film of special thick lubricant.

I f the centre hub i s removed this film may be disturbed.

Rega turntables are designed to optimise performance for

music reproduction and therefore no compromises have been

made to give quick start times. The normal time taken for full

speed to be reached is between 2-5 seconds.

 

The arm earth (or ground) is automatically connected

through the arm cable screening. No other earthing should

be necessary.

 

Save the original packing in case you ever need to transport

the turntable.

 

Don't use any polishes on the turntable or lid . To clean or

dust, wipe gently with a soft cotton duster (slightly damp only

if necessary).

 

Should you experience any problem with your turntable or

wish to enquire about servicing please contact your Rega

dealer.

 

post #1987 of 3640

Interesting...

post #1988 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by parbaked View Post

I think the "benefits" are twofold:

1) NOT using your Rega to clean records e.g. clean on something other than your TT, benefit being no strain on motor/belt by friction more than just the stylus on record and

2) belief that not all solvents sold are not necessarily good for one's vinyl.

I clean with a "SpinClean" when I first get an album and then use a Hunt brush, but not while LP is on the TT.

 

These are the actual operating hints from Rega:

 

 

Hints and Tips using your Turntable

 

Mount the turntable on a rigid, level surface. A light shelf or

turntable support screwed to a wall or in an alcove i s ideal.

Avoid mount ing on hol low or heavy cabinets or anything

mounted on a wooden floor.

 

Try to keep the lid closed while playing the records. This will

prevent dust falling on to the records and make cleaning

unnecessary. There may also be a sonic improvement.

 

Don't use any record cleaner that works while the record is

playing or any cleaners that use water or solvents. I f you

keep your records stored in their sleeves, avoid touching the

playing surfaces, play with the lid down and keep all water

and fluids away, cleaning should not be necessary. Don't

worry about visible dust on the record surface, this is

brushed aside by the stylus and any that collects on the stylus

can be easily blown away. In general, record cleaning is

overdone and one should not believe all the claims made by

record cleaner manufacturers.

 

Leave the turntable running during a record playing session.

Switch on before the session and only switch off after you

have finished.

 

Don't lift the centre hub out from the main bearing. The bearing

i s factory assembled with a film of special thick lubricant.

I f the centre hub i s removed this film may be disturbed.

Rega turntables are designed to optimise performance for

music reproduction and therefore no compromises have been

made to give quick start times. The normal time taken for full

speed to be reached is between 2-5 seconds.

 

The arm earth (or ground) is automatically connected

through the arm cable screening. No other earthing should

be necessary.

 

Save the original packing in case you ever need to transport

the turntable.

 

Don't use any polishes on the turntable or lid . To clean or

dust, wipe gently with a soft cotton duster (slightly damp only

if necessary).

 

Should you experience any problem with your turntable or

wish to enquire about servicing please contact your Rega

dealer.

 

That Rega list I did see long ago enough to forget it - and did not giggle any less now than the first time around.

 

More some other time, I would like you to know about the dust that does collect on the stylus and what are its effects. Well, you all know if the record is real dirty it will clog the stylus so much as to cause severe mistracking/distortion. This happens only in extreme cases, say if you forgot the record on the platter and did not use dust cover for extended period - at least over weekend or vacation. But problems start much earlier than that. And it affects the Aichille's heel of almost any turntable, cartridge compliance/tonearm mass resonance (usually around 10 Hz ) first. Once while measuring low frequency resonance, bad enough at usual + 12 or so dB at peak, it went "off chart", 20 dB+, threatening to jump the groove. I immediately stopped the measurement - and found the culprit. A tiny barely visible piece of fluff was clinging to the stylus - after brushing it aside, normal performance restored. Such fluff is normally considered harmless - it was more or less a single "hair", but much smaller and thinner.

 

It is hard to reproduce this measurement - because it is difficult to find repeatable "fluff". Records are not clean, even the ones just cleaned on RCM will still be leaving dust particles on brushes of Shure, Stanton or Pickering cartridges . One can not prevent dust falling on record, but normal dust covers are detrimental to sound. I dislike sound negative effects of those brushes and do not use them - so cleaning the record while playing seems ever less and less out of place. There were good dry cleaners that usually double as static removal devices. They are still made today. It just might mean I will have to sacrifice one of my tonearms and replace it with "broom" - no place for it on my TT at the present.

 

A turntable should have enough torque for at least two times the friction of single stylus - and that is enough for ""broom"

post #1989 of 3640

I don't find it interesting.  I see it another way, I guess.  Granted I've bought into VPI's marketing and designs, which are quite the opposite of Rega's.  A big and heavy everything with a clamp or weight to get a good coupling with the vinyl to deaden everything, and a record cleaner to go with it.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin to argue how or why a clean record is better, other than the record is clean.  I can hear it for myself.  And as much as I try to be the perfect record handler, little slips happen.  I even wash my hands often during the session when I set out for a night of listening, but it's pretty easy to accidentally touch the first few grooves with an oily finger when handling them in and out of the sleeves.  And I live in a really dusty place (due to my work), and it gets bad in here.  Then there's static cling in the few feet between sleeve and the record player.  Maybe he only listens to brand new vinyl once (which isn't clean either).

 

I have no fear of using a brush on a record while it's on the platter.  Belts slip, and it's fine.  And they're wear items anyways.  I even clean the side of the platter where the belt rides every now and then, and the belt with soapy water.  And I clean the platter with my air bulb blower or even my MoFi brush if it's the delrin VPI before every flip.  But everything still gets dusty.  It just happens.

 

VPI used to suggest using talcum powder on their belt, so I did.  More slip.  Different belt back then though.

 

Maybe Gandy likes the added resonance with his tables with the cover down.

 

I almost bought a Rega, so I'm not bashing, really.  But I'd still do my routine despite what he thinks.

 

Photo thread remember!  That's not where I keep all that, that was to show off my stuff.  biggrin.gif

 

 


Edited by Eee Pee - 7/16/13 at 3:33pm
post #1990 of 3640

I think you are absolutely correct.  Clean beats hell out of dirty.  I do want to make sure I don't spend more time cleaning and fussing than listening, though.  It's almost as if Gandy and Ivor Tiefenbrun just want to be contrarians.  Could it be?

post #1991 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post

I think you are absolutely correct.  Clean beats hell out of dirty.  I do want to make sure I don't spend more time cleaning and fussing than listening, though.  It's almost as if Gandy and Ivor Tiefenbrun just want to be contrarians.  Could it be?

IMO Gandy's really just saying 1) don't use your Rega as a record cleaning machine and 2) listen more and fiddle less.

A simple, well designed mechanism can perform better than one that requires fiddling and adjustments for the owner to "feel" they are getting the most out of their system.

post #1992 of 3640

There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.

post #1993 of 3640

Significantly better? I guess it depends on what you consider "significant."

 

In my opinion, you are already 95% there. You could spend a lot and get little (or nothing...).


Edited by palmfish - 7/18/13 at 11:51am
post #1994 of 3640
Long before I would buy a new TT, I would upgrade that Shure cartridge. Your Technics will certainly scale up significantly with a better pickup.
post #1995 of 3640
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackskelly View Post

There are a lot of great turntables in this thread. I currently own a Technics 1200 MK2, and while I don't really want to sell it now, I would like to upgrade to a better turntable. What recommendations does anyone have for a turntable in the $3-5K range that would be significantly better than the 1200? Maybe I should upgrade my cartridge first before I try a new turntable. Right now I have a Shure M97xE, which I know is quite common.

 

I ran 1200's for many, many years using the same cartridges for home listening as I did for playing out, American DJ Banana's (rebranded Ortofon Concorde I believe).  The Banana's are great carts for mixing, but I had no idea how good these decks could sound with a better cart.  I went "up" the ladder with Denon DL-110 -> Denon DL-160 -> Benz Micro Silver -> Audio Technica AT150MLX.

 

I must say each of these carts sound very good on a 1200.  The 110 is a great daily spinner, lots of low end and pretty smooth for it's price point.  The 160 improves on everything the 110 does, a bit leaner but punchier low end and a quite extended high end, still very smooth.  The Benz became my daily for about a year or so, nice tonal balance overall and decent clarity.  It is a great cart, but not as "fun" as the Denons IMO.  Still was good enough to stay in service until I picked up the 150MLX.  Currently, the AT is my favorite on these decks.  It has a deep, full and punchy low end you might expect with a higher end MM, but it still has excellent resolution and delicacy to the highs that betray its MM construction.  I would probably run the DL-160 more if I knew I could replace it at some point, but it's no longer in production so I keep the hours low.

 

I've also heard the AT440 on a 1200 that sounded great, I imagine similar to the AT150 but memory fails in a comparison.  IMO one of the best value carts is the DL-110 if you can't spring for the AT150MLX.

 

I'd love to hear others' favorites as well.  The whole universal head-shell thing makes having multiple carts pretty fun and easy to live with.  That said, none of the combos sound quite as good as my VPI Classic / Dyna 20X2 setup, but a 1200 can get probably 90% there with some light modding IMO.  I've not tried the DV20X2 on any of my 12's, but that would be an interesting experiment...the cart costs more than the decks did!

 

Hope that helps,

Hi-Five

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