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Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable - Page 132

post #1966 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipilot227 View Post

 

That said, however, the 2M series was actually designed with the Rega arms taken into consideration. Notice how the shape of the cartridge matches the headshell almost exactly when aligned properly wink.gif. Compliance-wise, also a very close match.

True. Manufacturers have to produce what sells well - with all Rega arms out there, Ortofon had to come up with a cartridge that matches this type of arm. And they finally did produce a decent sounding body for their VMS generator. Concorde/OM is far worse in this regard.

post #1967 of 3692

Point I should have included: unless you've got a ridiculously thick platter mat, VTA of the 2M Black should be near-perfect.

post #1968 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesterphile View Post

I'm playing around with a few ideas/options with the DV-20B

 

Option 1: Send to Garrott Bros. to get it retipped once again

 

Option 2: Apparently I can trade it in to Dynavector for a discount on one of their new units (Looking at the DV-10X5)

 

Option 3: Try something new

 

Any suggestions for Option 3?

Surprisingly, there is very little mention of the Nagaoka cartridges. Although it has been awhile since I last heard a Nagaoka, long enough for them to in the meantime add another zero to their model line to differentiate remaining old stock from new production, I would suggest the MP 500.  Sorry, I know it is TOTL, it costs what it does, you will eat nothing but rice for a while and I can not buy you one,  but from examining the measurements of all current MP X00 series, it appears to be the the greatest bargain of them all. Unless you are born under such lucky analog star you menage to get somewhere a NOS MP11 Boron, which is a rare case of cartridge manufacturer's generosity in a business that normally has to apply appropriate price tag to each and every square micron of its product. 

 

As Nagaoka is a MM cartridge , you have to be careful with electrical load - both arm wiring and input resistance and capacitance of your preamp can have a marked effect on end sonic result.

post #1969 of 3692

The Nagaoka carts are indeed very good performers. But I myself could never get to terms with MM cartridges. I prefer the sound of the high output MC carts. Denon should be high on the list for those types if you are not a lottery winner.
 

post #1970 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbophead View Post

Oh, I know you're right but it may be a journey too far for this old leveler.smile.gif

It always ultimately boils down to how much one is willing to do in order to get great sound. That on average it means Rega level of "precision" when it comes to stylus alignment in the groove. I am not saying Rega is poor in other departments, but in this crucial one it simply does not allow you to get

the optimum from any given cartridge. At least not in stock form.

 

I use Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracking air bearing tonearm as my default choice for cartridge testing/evaluation. Of all arms I am familiar with, it is the single one sporting correct geometry in 3D, even when and during VTA is changed while playing. It has a bad reputation that it is (about) the hardest one to get adjusted right. To say that it pops out of the box and mounts itself on the TT and adjust itself while brewing your tea would be the biggest lie I can think of in regard of turntables; but once set up, cartridge change is not that bad and although quite expensive, additional arm wands do help in this regard. Wish I could afford more of them. 

 

To illustrate the point: many years ago, somebody brought to me a "XY, non Rega" turntable complaining "something is wrong with balance" . Sure, it did sound mighty strange, but nothing one could directly attribute to parameters you can adjust on Rega. I measured the thing and it turned out that cartridge had a massive azimuth error, exceeding anything I had ever measured before. As otherwise this cartridge did both sound and measure very promising, I reluctantly removed a painstakingly adjusted cartridge from one of my ET2 wands and mounted that azimuth offending cartridge.  It turned out it required a massive 3 1/2 degree of compensation, but once properly adjusted, turned out to be about as perfect as it gets.

 

One machining of a proprietary custom 3 1/2 degree aluminium wedge to go between non azimuth adjustable arm headshell and the offending cartridge later, the ugly duckling turned into a VERY beautiful swan. If I did not have the capability to check for the correct azimuth compensation, no way I could ever find this cart was soooo good, save for the azimuth.

 

In theory, cartridges should be azimuth error free. In practice, they are not. Once you go past the 35 or so dB channel separation, it is less than 1/3rd of a degree azimuth compensation required. Arm manufacturers can claim their arms are correct for azimuth to within a fraction of degree; look at the real life photos of the styli/cantilevers and you can not but realize that insisting on fixed azimuth is asking for trouble in real life. There are good solutions for azimuth correction out there, some are even clever enough to contribute to better damping of the arm tube than it would be in the case of a single piece tubing - negating the rigidity claim, which is the usual argument for the manufacturers who provide no azimuth adjustment.

 

A relatively very modest TT, far lower on the "food chain", can, if properly adjusted, sound far better than a superior product with slight mismatch in adjustments. Trouble is - once you hear it right, you will not want to return to anything less. 

 

Then again, there is always "a bridge too far" .

post #1971 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxide View Post

The Nagaoka carts are indeed very good performers. But I myself could never get to terms with MM cartridges. I prefer the sound of the high output MC carts. Denon should be high on the list for those types if you are not a lottery winner.
 

MM is something that should have never happened in its present form - save for few exceptions far and between, of which only couple of very expensive Grado models are in current production. MM is originally patent by ELAC from 1957, known to most people as Shure cartridge, which was/is built under license. With all the limitations of by now 60 years old technology. It was improvement over ceramic carts back then, yet it is limitation now for at least 30 years. MM is next to impossible to predict how it will sound in any real given system - so great can be effects of electrical loading. Mechanically, they are MUCH more easy to produce well than MCs, and a good stylus/cantilever/moving whatever is the first prerequisite for good sound - if there are problems here, superior generating principle can even be detrimental...

 

I agree Denon HOMCs are way underrated. They basically offer very honest reproduction and give practically any other cart run for the money. But they just can not produce the detail of their ( too/more) expensive counterparts. I wish Denon made a HOMC version with say Fine Line ( or equivalent ) stylus on slightly better cantilever - it would bridge most of the gap at minimum price increase. MCs are, for all practical purposes, unaffected by electrical loading ( particularly capacitance) - at least those leading to gross frequency deviations and are therefore much more predictable how they sound.

 

That said - low impedance ( < 5 ohm ), low output MCs are so much beter that it can be scary.

But you need to win lottery not for the cartridge alone, but supporting MC input as well. AND you have to create low electrical noise enviroment once you go with cartridge output below

say 0,3 mV/5cm/sec, otherwise noise/hum/buzz will obscure any advantages to the point of anyone preferring HOMC in noisy system. Lots of work or another lottery win.

 

It is always the combination of principle and implementation - AND cost. At the same price, you can have better stylus/cantilever on MM, as on MC coil is more expensive than magnet - etc, ad nuseaum. If you can listen prior to purchase in your own system or at dealer's with at least your phono stage - use that, can save tons of time and money.

post #1972 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipilot227 View Post

Point I should have included: unless you've got a ridiculously thick platter mat, VTA of the 2M Black should be near-perfect.

Arm height should have been adjustable on ALL arms/turntables. At some most it is not because of price constraints or unproportionally difficult implementation of say automatic functions of arm/table. 

 

I do resort to mat thickness in cases there are no other options to correct for VTA. This means compromising the very important interface platter/record, which should be allowed to do its job without having to think of VTA. High/tall cartridge>thin mat, low/small cartridge>thick mat - and record interface can lead to more sonic difference than there is between the cartridges.

 

I do not want to comment on $ 6000 + (yes, six grand + ) mat I recently saw revieved. I realize most of us are normal people not picking up money on street, off tree etc. Then again, at least costlier Regas are not inexpensive either and should allow for correct VTA of any cartridge likely to be used with them, not just Rega, which is SUPPOSED to be correct. The problem are sample to sample variations in cartridges - they differ enough for the "one size fits all" not be really optimum, in any production, Rega included.

 

This is precisely the reason why Technics T4P p-mount system ultimately failed. All dimensions standardized, weight standardized, compliance standardized  - means in theory, cartridge can be replaced with a single screw, in seconds, no adjustments other than MM/MC setting required.. In practice, there are slightly longer or shorter cantilevers, bringing the stylus slightly off intended perfect alignment. T4P carts are as susceptible to azimuth errors as any other - and here you can basicaly do - nothing. Same for VTA variations. Compliances varied, to the point of Ortofon adapting its otherwise superb miniature MC cartridge MC 100/200  to T4P format as TMC100/200. Both compliance and VTF are far too low, 1.25 g WTF  which is default setting for T4P specified arm is only wishful thinking when tracking a 100/200, which requires at least 1.8 gram VTF to work properly. Resonance usually gets too high in frequency, muddying the bass . All of the above can lead to abysmal sonic results - and it did. It took me long before I even started considering anything T4P because of these issues that have officially no cure or remedy. Sometimes, solutions that would make McGyver green with envy, have to be used. 

 

Bottom line - some form of continuosly variable height is required. It is precisely your cartridge that needs to be accurately adjusted, not any other.

There can be rafinements as ability to use VTA on the fly while playing, precise micrometers etc - although desirable, not absolutely necessary. But discrete thickness spacers and varying mat thickness to roughly get VTA right somehow do not belong in this age - grammophone should have come of age by now - even its intended replacement CD is now celebrating its 30th birthday.

post #1973 of 3692

So glad to see this thread getting so much action lately.

lots of great insight and pics...

 

To give a brief update on my new VPI JMW 3D tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge...

 

The sound just keeps getting better and better.

The dynamics and speed of this combo eclipses my previous arm/cart combo of JMW 10.5i with Dynavector XX-2 mk.II.

 

Chad Stelly at Acoustic Sounds set up the cartridge for me, and shipped it already attached to the arm. 

So, basically, the only thing left for me to do was to remove the damping fluid well from the pivot bearing, adjust the VTA, and install the ant-skating device.

 

Before he shipped it to me, he commented that this combo was the most dynamic arm/cartridge combo he had ever heard.  Perhaps not on par with his Lyra Atlas or whatever, but he said it had more slam and impact than any other combo he had ever heard...  he said he wished he could keep it around and keep listening to it...  

 

As I pointed out before, the azimuth on this new light-weight arm is incredibly sensitive.  And this was the most time-consuming aspect of the install.

It seems the self-weight of the metal tonearms allows them to withstand a small amount of eccentricity between the counterweight and the azimuth of the stylus.

But the feather-light 3D arm requries that the counterweight be perfectly set to allow the stylus to track vertically.

Otherwise, the entire arm begins see-sawing.

The SoundSmith Counter-Intuitive really came in handy, as i was making minute adjustments to the azimuth to get the arm and stylus to track as dead-level and still as possible...

The resulting sound is pretty splendid indeed.

Rock-solid imaging, wide stereo sound, and liveliness that CD just can't touch...

 

post #1974 of 3692

Good to hear about Chad.  We worked together in the 80's-90's at Home Entertainment, then Tweeter, in Houston,

post #1975 of 3692

In order to keep this *mostly* a photo thread (although the discussion is great), here's some more Rega shots for ya. Just got my DSLR back, finally.

 

 

post #1976 of 3692

Excellent!  Love the pics.

post #1977 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipilot227 View Post

In order to keep this *mostly* a photo thread (although the discussion is great), here's some more Rega shots for ya. Just got my DSLR back, finally.

 

 

 

Hey your P2 looks like my P2!

 

 

 

 

Your pic reminds me of our earlier posts re: Gandy's unique ideas on TTs where we forgot to mention dust covers! 

The Rega manuals actually state that using and closing the dust cover while playing "may" improve the sound....

Throw yours back on. It stops wind noise from getting in the way of your enjoyment! beerchug.gif


Edited by parbaked - 7/15/13 at 8:28pm
post #1978 of 3692

I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.

 

Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.

 

Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.

post #1979 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by parbaked View Post

 

How old is your P2? Mine is 5 years old, but it had a different stock platter (tapered MDF, painted black like the rest of the table). Is yours a stock or upgraded platter? I use a P3 glass platter.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eee Pee View Post

I grew up to believe dust covers are like a giant resonator, imparting a sound of their own.

 

Gandy also said don't clean your records.  And you can Google that for proof.

 

Different train of thought, and more power to him, but c'mon.  A dirty record is not a good thing.

Yeah, I usually leave mine off when playing. I was of a similar opinion. I used to use a record weight, which wouldn't fit with the cover closed, so I usually just remove it out of habit. If the resonance theory is accurate, it wouldn't be wise as my speakers have 15" woofers biggrin.gif

 

His idea about cleaning records though is bull-poo. I don't want a dirty record anywhere near my 2M Blue stylus.

post #1980 of 3692
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

So glad to see this thread getting so much action lately.

lots of great insight and pics...

 

To give a brief update on my new VPI JMW 3D tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge...

 

The sound just keeps getting better and better.

The dynamics and speed of this combo eclipses my previous arm/cart combo of JMW 10.5i with Dynavector XX-2 mk.II.

 

Chad Stelly at Acoustic Sounds set up the cartridge for me, and shipped it already attached to the arm. 

So, basically, the only thing left for me to do was to remove the damping fluid well from the pivot bearing, adjust the VTA, and install the ant-skating device.

 

Before he shipped it to me, he commented that this combo was the most dynamic arm/cartridge combo he had ever heard.  Perhaps not on par with his Lyra Atlas or whatever, but he said it had more slam and impact than any other combo he had ever heard...  he said he wished he could keep it around and keep listening to it...  

 

As I pointed out before, the azimuth on this new light-weight arm is incredibly sensitive.  And this was the most time-consuming aspect of the install.

It seems the self-weight of the metal tonearms allows them to withstand a small amount of eccentricity between the counterweight and the azimuth of the stylus.

But the feather-light 3D arm requries that the counterweight be perfectly set to allow the stylus to track vertically.

Otherwise, the entire arm begins see-sawing.

The SoundSmith Counter-Intuitive really came in handy, as i was making minute adjustments to the azimuth to get the arm and stylus to track as dead-level and still as possible...

The resulting sound is pretty splendid indeed.

Rock-solid imaging, wide stereo sound, and liveliness that CD just can't touch...

 

Thank you for the update !

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