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Post A Photograph Of Your Turntable - Page 86

post #1276 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

Question: Are there significant differences in phono preamps? I have a TCC TC-750 preamp that while nice, I don't think it really gives the oomph in the low-end. Of course maybe it's my speakers 35hz wall.... Anyways what I'm asking is if I were to spend the money on a.... I don't know maybe a Pro-Ject Phono Box or a Music Hall 1.2 MM, will I get a significantly better sound? Right now when I play records they sound good but I'm not blown away. Record collecting currently is just habitual and an investment per se. But I want to ENJOY records as well.

 

Also, what is the difference between a phono preamp and a phono stage?

Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.

 

Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,

arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .

post #1277 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.

 

Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,

arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .

 

Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.

 

I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.

 

I ended up getting a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pro-Ject Phono Box S.  I will pair these with a Bottlehead Crack and my DT880 600ohms.  I hope that it will sound good!

 

I ended up going with the Phono Box S because of the Subsonic Filter(again I am a noobie and thought this was good because I don't want to ruin my headphones), adjustable gain settings, and same manufacturer hopefully they would test them together and would sound good.

 

A question for you.  There are 4 gain settings...40, 43, 60, 63(I think).  The 2M Red it says to go with 40 gain.  With my Crack right now though my DAC I have to have it between 12-2 to get an acceptible volume.  I am afraid that with the TT I will have to go higher.  I know that increasing the gain will introduce noise but is it advisable to go to 43 with the 2M red....or what about 60??

 

Thanks very much.  I am sorry that I sold all my albums from the 70s now!  I am really excited!! :)

post #1278 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Graham View Post

 

Haha cheers bud, 

I havent spun for around 3 & 1/2 years as Im living at my parents whilst in between homes, So the decks & other gear not in the photo is all in storage 

currently. 

However when we do move, I plan to size down, So I'll be selling my Denon CDJ's, Power amps, the Vestax mixer in the pic ( Pcv 175 ) & some of my DJ cans.

 

Then I'll be running two 1210's ( need to get a second 1210m3d - its the black one in the pic ), my Vestax PMC 25 with rotary upgrade ( replaces the sliders )

in a custom built unit. I'll be getting a set of Yamaha HS80M studio monitors & my ibook running Torq ( DVS )

And I'll probably get a second set of HD25's specifically for my DJ setup.

 

The two 1200mk2's will be refurbished inside and out with a new lick of paint, Then I'll sell them on too.

 

all the money I get from my DJ gear sales will fund my audiophile side of things as I still don't have half the gear I want/need & being a carer, Wonga is tight lol!

I only scratch and I'm using a Numark CDX (one of like 3 still working in the known universe it seems) and a Vestax PMC-08 pro (Vestax mixers are the shizznit!!).

post #1279 of 3647

I still have a way to go as I still need to order an RB300, Phono stage & A decent cart.

For now Im running a stock RP3, R200 arm, ( Possible re-cable? - waiting on comfirmation ) New belt, Glass platter & 

Ortofon Concorde "NightClub" 

Amp is a Denon PMA-250, Speaker cable is Mr Lo & the speakers are the Monitor Audio Bronze BR2.

 

The setup in the pictures was a quick test rig to make sure all is working ok. 

Which it is and then some lol!!

Grinning like a cheshire cat right now.

 

 

 

AppleMark

 

 

 

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AppleMark

 

 

 

 

 

With the Nightclub - 

 

 

And with the OM - 

 


Edited by Paul Graham - 1/24/13 at 4:03pm
post #1280 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by wullymc View Post

 

Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.

 

I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.

 

I ended up getting a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pro-Ject Phono Box S.  I will pair these with a Bottlehead Crack and my DT880 600ohms.  I hope that it will sound good!

 

I ended up going with the Phono Box S because of the Subsonic Filter(again I am a noobie and thought this was good because I don't want to ruin my headphones), adjustable gain settings, and same manufacturer hopefully they would test them together and would sound good.

 

A question for you.  There are 4 gain settings...40, 43, 60, 63(I think).  The 2M Red it says to go with 40 gain.  With my Crack right now though my DAC I have to have it between 12-2 to get an acceptible volume.  I am afraid that with the TT I will have to go higher.  I know that increasing the gain will introduce noise but is it advisable to go to 43 with the 2M red....or what about 60??

 

Thanks very much.  I am sorry that I sold all my albums from the 70s now!  I am really excited!! :)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wullymc View Post

 

Thank you very much analogsurviver for the details on Subsonic filtering.

 

I have just joined the club but am waiting for my TT and preamp to arrive.

 

I ended up getting a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pro-Ject Phono Box S.  I will pair these with a Bottlehead Crack and my DT880 600ohms.  I hope that it will sound good!

 

I ended up going with the Phono Box S because of the Subsonic Filter(again I am a noobie and thought this was good because I don't want to ruin my headphones), adjustable gain settings, and same manufacturer hopefully they would test them together and would sound good.

 

A question for you.  There are 4 gain settings...40, 43, 60, 63(I think).  The 2M Red it says to go with 40 gain.  With my Crack right now though my DAC I have to have it between 12-2 to get an acceptible volume.  I am afraid that with the TT I will have to go higher.  I know that increasing the gain will introduce noise but is it advisable to go to 43 with the 2M red....or what about 60??

 

Thanks very much.  I am sorry that I sold all my albums from the 70s now!  I am really excited!! :)

Phono gain adjustments are there because phono cartridges have different sensitivities - and because it (used to be )/is standardized how loud should a source be prior input to line preamp. In olden days, that meant .707 V at 0 dB, but then came CD with its 2 V nominal out ant things are in between these two valus "in grey area happily forever since ". If you set the phono gain too high relative to the cartridge in use, you would outstrip the pream capabilities - phono overload is not so problematic as it used to be in the first days of transistors, but expecting any reasonably priced phono preamp to offer 40 dB of overload margin ( 20 really required, and if you misadjust gain for MC ie60 dB for a MM cart requiring 40 dB of gain, that then requires 40 dB of overload margin ) is too much and is definitely calling for trouble. 40/43 and 60/63 settings are for covering the different sensitivities within the MM and MC group of carts respectively.

 

If you then still lack gain - line stage, or in modern days just "preamp" is something you will have to insert between the output of phono stage and input of whatever that does not achieve full level with the output of phono preamp alone.

 

Subsonics on turntable are of course connected with the link I have posted several times.  You might be shocked to learn that vast majority of record players play about only 20 % useful musical signal - all the rest is subsonic garbage, something it either needs to be filtered or requires equipment to have such great margins for overload - which even when it can be done, costs absurd amounts of money. Like instead of 100 W amps 1000+W amps etc - so if your arm does not allow LF resonance at approx 10 Hz of below + 4dB or so at the peak ( about 40 % more than it should have been ) but happily resonates at around usual + 12 dB ( approx 400 % - yes 4 times ) at its resonant point, subsonic filter is, regardless of what should be in theory, still a better choice for majority.

 

There ARE pickup arm/cartridges that behave at +4dB ( or even better ) at resonance - but they need painstaking adjustment(s) with test record(s) , never did grow on trees and are even less likely to do so today. And they do not come cheap, except with some lucky coincidence. But they will let you play bass as was recorded to the LP and was meant to be heard - without any subsonic filtering. 

 

 I sold entire 3 ( in a word: three ) LPs I owned in my life, one of them was unfortunately http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2746 which is considered classic and is now next to unobtainable - even if you agree with the exhorbitant price. Equipment is replaceable - records are not.


Edited by analogsurviver - 1/24/13 at 8:29am
post #1281 of 3647

I got a new edge clamp and center weight...

 

TTW Audio out of Ontario supplied both.

The edge ring is pictured below with the "locator disc". 

Actually, this seems to work really well.  You just place the plastic locator disc on the metal clamp, then put that down on top of your record.

Then, the plastic locator disc lifts off, leaving the edge clamp behind (and in the right spot).

 

TTW Audio were a pleasure to deal with, and make a beautiful product...

and a product that is less than half the cost of the (*cough* way overpriced) VPI stabilizer ring.

 

so, here's the rig as of today...

 

 

 

 

Warped records?  I laugh in your general direction!!!   biggrin.gif

post #1282 of 3647
Still jealous Wuss. So sexy. Just to update slightly on our Convo the other day it looks like I might be cutting the stage budget way back. Tax return is gonna be quite a bit smaller than I expected. I'm now also looking at the Rega P8 as well as the other we talked about.
post #1283 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Although I disagree with any subsonic filtering in phono preamps/stages ( the same thing under two names ), I do realize it is too difficult for most people to get their record player fundamental resonance right in the first place. Manufacturers of far higher quality phono preamps than TCC TC-750 still do it - because if you put together a combination of arm and cartridge with a pronounced and above all underdamped low frequency resonance ( the one around 10 Hz ), there is more chance of possibility to ENJOY reproduction over such setup through preamp with built in subsonic filter than the one that lets you hear it all - be it good or bad. It is the classic case of "prevention is better than cure", yet after it has been proven over decades that only a scant percentage of users of phono equipment is capable of "prevention" - and this is possible with a rather high end equipment in the first place - the "cure" ( sub sonic filtering - the missing oomph in bass as you put it ) is still better than no action at all.

 

Frankly, if you expect the solidity of bass from your phono comparable or equal to digital, it can be approached - but the precision in main TT bearings,

arm bearings, cartridge, phono preamp etc, which is capable of equaling digital, generally is $$$ .

 

 

Reply to first part - that sounds like gibberish, please dumb it down

 

second part - I realize I can't realistically get down to the lower frequencies without a huge amount of money, but are there any affordable solutions to at least getting closer than I am now?

post #1284 of 3647

@ TheWuss - Beautiful!

post #1285 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent One View Post

@ TheWuss - Beautiful!

 

Boy Howdy!  Is it ever.  Nice beerchug.gif

post #1286 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

I got a new edge clamp and center weight...

 

TTW Audio out of Ontario supplied both.

The edge ring is pictured below with the "locator disc". 

Actually, this seems to work really well.  You just place the plastic locator disc on the metal clamp, then put that down on top of your record.

Then, the plastic locator disc lifts off, leaving the edge clamp behind (and in the right spot).

 

TTW Audio were a pleasure to deal with, and make a beautiful product...

and a product that is less than half the cost of the (*cough* way overpriced) VPI stabilizer ring.

 

so, here's the rig as of today...

 

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

 

 

 

Warped records?  I laugh in your general direction!!!   biggrin.gif

 

I'm interested in record clamps but their price does not make them very appealing. I accidentally through a record out into the recycling in the summer (and it had rained) and didn't realize it until 3 days later. I practically cried. But is the lp absolutely screwed or is the warp superficial?

post #1287 of 3647

thanks, guys.   beerchug.gif

 

gonna have some friends over tonight.  sip some beer, listen to some old jazz LPs.  can't wait.

 

@ MT - for a budget oriented stage, the Chinook rocks.

There are a few very nice ones right in that price range, and even a tad under that.

For example, the Liberty Audio BTB-1 is supposed to be forehead-slapping good.  $1750.

post #1288 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

I'm interested in record clamps but their price does not make them very appealing. I accidentally through a record out into the recycling in the summer (and it had rained) and didn't realize it until 3 days later. I practically cried. But is the lp absolutely screwed or is the warp superficial?

hard to say...

there are other ways of recovering the use of that record.

there are record flattening machines.  as well as homemade remedies for flattening warped records.

depending on the severity, you might be able to send it away to someone to have it flattened...

post #1289 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post

 

 

Reply to first part - that sounds like gibberish, please dumb it down

 

second part - I realize I can't realistically get down to the lower frequencies without a huge amount of money, but are there any affordable solutions to at least getting closer than I am now?

Sorry, can't put it otherwise and still remain polite about it - allowing for the undamped resonance and sweeping every other ill effect but just sheer overload of everything down the chain under the rug, which is all and everything a subsonic filter is capable of doing, always puts me into red zone RPM/overdrive.  

But still better than allowing all ill effects of resonance and not even removing sheer overload of everything by using a subsonic filter. Listening at high volume with vented speakers to the same music on LP and CD should definitely give you visual clues - woofers would dance totally out of tune and with MUCH higher amplitude than with CD - testimony to the undamped fundamental tonearm/cartridge combination resonance.

 

An affordable solution that does work is Shure Dynamic Stabilizer - or "brush" as more commonly referred to, first introduced on V 15 Type IV in 1978.

It is VERY effective, it will almost completely remove lateral resonance and still be quite effective with vertical one. Trouble is, it does not come free; 

There are approx 10000 carbon fibre "hairs" making contact from about 4 mm before the stylus position on the vinyl to the stylus position - and you get combined "pre echo" recorded signal feedback from the surface of the record that is totally unrelated to the actual signal being traced by the stylus at the time. It can pass unnoticed with some kind of music, like loud pop/rock/whatever - but if you are listening to some high dynamic range recording, like say Mahler's symphonies, you will notice this when listening to some very quiet passage and carbon bristles are already tracing the next dynamic outburst. The effect ist most audible and disturbing on the JVC TRS 1007 Test Record - there are frequency response sweeps and as analog predates digital/computer times, each sweep is followed by silent groove recorded for the time needed for the chart recorder to return to the start position, in order to be able to draw the curve say for another channel to the same piece of paper ( the famous Bruel & Kjaer papers, like included with each Benz Micro Switzerland cart ). With normal cartridge or Shure operated with brush lifted up, it sounds normal; with Shure brush, you get peculiar toned down distant kind of sound when there should be nothing - the bristles are already tracing the next sweep, whereas stylus is still in the silent grooves. I have nicknamed this effect as Subway - as it does most resemble the sound of underground subway of Paris or London of incoming and outgoing trains.

For this reason, I try to avoid the brush as much as I can, but if the resonance is too much with given combination, I give in and use it.

 

Stax did a variation on the theme, It is CS-2 Air Damped Stabilizer for HIGH COMPLIANCE CARTRIDGES.http://www.audio-extasa.eu/popup_add_image.php?pID=1246  It mounts between the tonearm/headshell and ANY 1/2" mount cartridge and can ve adjusted so that its brisles ride as close to the stylus as possible. It is as effective as Shure's brush, with sligtly less bristle pre echo. Rare as hen's teeth, appropriately priced,  but sporadically does surface on ebay.

 

Technics EPA 100, EPA 100MK2, EPA 250, EPA 500 , a couple of Denon arms, one Pioneer, an arm on Dual ( 714Q ) have Dynamic Antiresonator built into their counterweight - which CAN be precisely adjusted for the very cartridge in operation, using test record and ear (with some training/experience ) or the use of measuring instruments. Dynavector DV 505 and 507 are VERY effective at suppressing that Enemy of Analog # 1 - in fact, they are perhaps the only solution when it comes to ACCURATELY reproducing the most difficult LP to reproduce of them all, the http://www.popsike.com/THE-POWER-AND-GLORY-HOLZGRAF-DIRECT-TO-DISC-MK-REAL-MILLER-KREISEL-AUDIOPHILE/270915950996.html

http://avaxhome.ws/hraphile/Holzgraf_Power_and_Glory_Volume1_24_96.html

If there is ANY LF resonance, this awesome recording will reveal it - and Grado Dancers WILL all but jump the groove, so please do not use them ( a properly adjusted/matched Grado will do just fine ! ). But please take this seriously; recording cointains MUSIC recorded down to 8 Hz or so - you need large speakers/amplifiers and big enough ROOM to at least try to reproduce this awesome sound. Stax Lambda Pro/SRM1MK2 will do justice to this record - IF you take care of the record player LF resonance.
 
There were other viable solutions to the problem, like Dynamic Q Damping by Denon, Sony and JVC. Of all of the above, only Dynavector DV 707 is still in the production. The only other arm that is still acceptable regarding this made today are various incarnations of The Well Tempered Arm. -  provided your records are reasonably flat or at least not with quick sharp warps, because it can not follow them due to very high degree of viscous damping without forcing the cantilever to completely take over all the burden.
 
HOWEVER - and that is a BIG however - things may not be so dark. There is a fair possibility that this http://www.rauna.com/slides/cantusjpg.html may well prove to be well behaved as far as LF resonance ( and hopefully everything else ...) is concerned. A friend is eyeing this on my recommendation and if and when the thing comes under my scrutiny, will report on findings ASAP.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm9PmGY31Q  
 
There is an undisputed king of solutions to this problem, MUCH MALIGNED, particularly from the US sources. Although I certainly do have a link to the math behind it, proving that this thing is clever enough to adjust itself automatically to the parameters needed for each and every cartridge without any adjustments necessary on the part of the user, let's say that for all the bashing this superb but not exactly stellar executioned design got from English speaking world, FINDING IT WILL BE LEFT AS AN EXERCISE FOR THE READER. And absolutely forget finding it in English - does not exist.
 

Edited by analogsurviver - 1/25/13 at 2:04am
post #1290 of 3647
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWuss View Post

hard to say...

there are other ways of recovering the use of that record.

there are record flattening machines.  as well as homemade remedies for flattening warped records.

depending on the severity, you might be able to send it away to someone to have it flattened...

+1

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