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post #1141 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Modern TT's may be better at the high end, but I firmly believe, from direct experience, that for under about $600 or so, your money buys you a MUCH better vintage TT than you can get from any modern TT in that price range. I paid $550 for a Denon DP-59L which is only very slightly eclipsed by my VPI Scoutmaster, and the Denon absolutely SMOKES entry level Music Hall, Pro-Ject, and Rega TT's (by direct comparison, but of course IMO).

Definitely true. You all must not forget what is now vintage $500 table was TOTL or very close to that level back in the day, costing then great amounts of money. Factor in inflation over the decades and it should be clear even to the non expert why this is so.

 

Modern day entry level TTs enjoy one great advantage over even TOTL of TOTL vintage designs - finally, low resonance non ringing solutions for the platter start appearing, often at the most basic level possible; manufacturers afraid of getting taken serious if some industry "leftovers" are pressed into shape and machined into TT platter - regardless of the instantly audible improvement over metal forever ringing bells of the past ? But these basic but well implemented designs can not compete with the technicall excellence at every imaginable point of good vintage designs - Denon DP-59L certainly does qualify as such.

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post #1142 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blooze View Post

How about a Project Debut III with acrylic platter, speed box, and a Denon DL110 cart for $500?  I think I know where I can get one.
 

I Have a better idea! Buy the DL110, put it on the 1200mk2 (<--My setup), take the rest of your $500 and either buy a new preamp OR buy HEADPHONES!!!!

BTW, the Denon plus Technics combo is legendary and now that I have it i completely concur.


Edited by kid vic - 12/30/12 at 4:04am
post #1143 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by kid vic View Post

I Habe a better idea! Buy the DL110, put it on the 1200mk2 (<--My setup), take the rest of your $500 and either buy a new preamp OR buy HEADPHONES!!!!

BTW, the Denon plus Technics combo is legendary and now that I have it i completely concur.

+1. Just add some good mat, an Achromat should go a long way towards even better SQ.

 

And I will publish "a blast from the past" that although did not otriginate with me and does not look good or nice, will save you $$$ until you can afford said $$$ for the new, better arm or modification to the basic 1200 design.

 

For about 5 $ or so of cost of materials - with plenty leftover you can use for your other or friend's decks.

post #1144 of 3412

I got a "Reso-Mat" for my SL1200, because one of the criticisms of that turntable is they really overdamped it:

 

Enter the Reso-Mat. The idea with this mat is to have absolutely no influence on the record. It sits on cones with minimal contact with no clamping. Vibrations from the stylus are free to dissipate in the open air with no reflections. There is nothing to dampen the record either.

 

I would agree that for most TTs the Achromat is an excellent upgrade. But the SL1200 is a different beast, and for it I like the Reso-Mat:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESO-MAT-TURNTABLE-PLATTER-MAT-FOR-TECHNICS-SL1200-GARRARD-401-/180921911246?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item2a1fc947ce

 

For my "uneven" records I use my DL-103 with a more forgiving cartridge and a traditional clamp. I'll probably invest in a Achromat at some point for that TT.

post #1145 of 3412

 

Very nice and thank you for that link. And to think mine is stored away. I am going to drag it out as soon as I disassemble the Pro-Ject Xperience. I've been reading lots of nice things about the SL1200 lately. :)

post #1146 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Cruel fact : effective mass for the world's lightest stylus structure, Technics EPC P100CMK4 is 0.055 mg. Anything you might be capable of purchasing from the current production, regardless of price, will be 0.15 mg or thereabouts, normally exceedeing 0.2 mg. That is to say, the hayday top cartridge ( it still is ) was roughly three to four times more capable of responding to sudden accelerations in the groove than any current cartridge is capable of doing. The specified frequency response of said cart is 120 kHz . This  is why clever manufacturers, aware of these facts, will not publish the effective stylus tip mass or at least try to be as discrete about it as possible in the specification sheet.

NOTHING you can do about it today. And if you think that any of the sub 0.15 mg effective stylus tip mass Technics or Denon carts can be rettipped if you busted the cantilever while still retaining the original performance, you are in for a VERY rude awakening.
I bet the Decca is faster...
Stylus mass is not all there is to it. If your cantilever is light it is mostly less stiff too, thus you are loosing energy and lowering the resonance frequency! It acts as a suspension on higher frequencies with lesser damping. So you are losing high frequencies except for a ringing on the resonance frequency which is probably dangerously close to the audible range.
I don't think there is any comparison to a short diamond (or ruby, sapphire) cantilever. Or not use a cantilever altogether like the Decca's. And then there's the rest of the system picking up the magnetic field variations.

Ever seen this Denon 103R? I wouldn't mind giving that a try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

Modern TT's may be better at the high end, but I firmly believe, from direct experience, that for under about $600 or so, your money buys you a MUCH better vintage TT than you can get from any modern TT in that price range. I paid $550 for a Denon DP-59L which is only very slightly eclipsed by my VPI Scoutmaster, and the Denon absolutely SMOKES entry level Music Hall, Pro-Ject, and Rega TT's (by direct comparison, but of course IMO).
That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites.

In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

I got a "Reso-Mat" for my SL1200, because one of the criticisms of that turntable is they really overdamped it:

Enter the Reso-Mat. The idea with this mat is to have absolutely no influence on the record. It sits on cones with minimal contact with no clamping. Vibrations from the stylus are free to dissipate in the open air with no reflections. There is nothing to dampen the record either.

I would agree that for most TTs the Achromat is an excellent upgrade. But the SL1200 is a different beast, and for it I like the Reso-Mat:
So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.
Edited by ]eep - 12/30/12 at 4:23pm
post #1147 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by " 
eep" url="/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1140#post_9004836"]

That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites.
In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference rolleyes.gif
So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.

Your calling my post "stupid" is absolutely disrespectful, regardless of your qualifier. I'm sorry you have some odd emotional hang up on this topic, but please refrain from being so rude. Disagree with me all you want, but please be polite about it.

And it doesn't take much research to see that it is simply untrue that "vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mosly overpriced". They are not even close to rare. There are TONS of them. The only thing many of them require is a new cartridge, and the knowledge of how to set them up properly.
post #1148 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

And it doesn't take much research to see that it is simply untrue that "vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mosly overpriced". They are not even close to rare. There are TONS of them. The only thing many of them require is a new cartridge, and the knowledge of how to set them up properly.

 

Talk about TONS. You're absolutely right about that. I've seen a few in incredible condition just sitting around. Okay, maybe they needed a spot of lube and a belt change but they are everywhere. I know an ex-coworker that owns a TT that uses infrared light to find the tracks. It has a linear arm and she has ample replacement cartridges she bough on a whim 25 years ago. She plays it once in a while. I bought the same one but threw it out in 1988 when I moved. (Banging head against the wall.)

post #1149 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep 


That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites.
In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference rolleyes.gif
So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.

 

What exactly is your knowledge of used vintage TTs?  Unless you think Denons and other similar TTs are junk, your statement is false.  Also, how many budget (<$500) TTs have you auditioned?  I assume a lot in order for you to make an informed comparison with vintage tables.  I recently purchased a Denon DL-62 in mint condition for $520.  I installed a cartridge and it sounds great.  I know since I also own a VPI Scoutmaster for comparison.  Imagine how good it would sound if I really knew has to tweak all the settings.  Your rude comment may reflect your experience but my experience has been very different.

post #1150 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post


I bet the Decca is faster...
Stylus mass is not all there is to it. If your cantilever is light it is mostly less stiff too, thus you are loosing energy and lowering the resonance frequency! It acts as a suspension on higher frequencies with lesser damping. So you are losing high frequencies except for a ringing on the resonance frequency which is probably dangerously close to the audible range.
I don't think there is any comparison to a short diamond (or ruby, sapphire) cantilever. Or not use a cantilever altogether like the Decca's. And then there's the rest of the system picking up the magnetic field variations.

Ever seen this Denon 103R? I wouldn't mind giving that a try.
That is an unfair and stupid comparison (no disrespect). You are comparing retail prices to 2ndH/vintage/yardsale prices. Vintage turntables in good condition are rare and mostly overpriced.
I bought my Cardas modified Pro-ject Perspective (incl Kiseki cart) 5y ago for €425 and now my Clearaudio Performance+Satisfy arm for €1000. You are not going to better that with 'vintage' - ergo, mostly used up junk- which is glorified (and thus overpriced) by stories on the internet by nostalgic people, oldtimer fans and peddlers. This really irritates me just like those 2ndH smoked-up and buffed-up tube peddlers on several trading sites.
In my country there is a firm restoring Thorens TT's like the TD124. Totally revised and restored they sell for €2500 up to €4000. Just for reference rolleyes.gif
So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.

Decca is an interesting beast - but limited by relatively high mass. You weould loose the bet. You can not use so tiny diamonds with this design as you can on cantilevers - there must be some reasonable surface for the "rope" to hang on. One look on square wave observed on an oscilloscope reproduced off test disc by 100CMK4 or anything else is all that it takes. It sounds approaching like - nothing.

 

Deccas tend to be rather sample to sample dependant, and they at times go berserk for no appearent reason. But I would not mind having one well behaved sample. This design will always remain a love/hate affair and under no circumstances I would choose it if that was the only cartridge. Divine when right, nightmare when even the slighest thing goes wrong.

 

That Denon has a sapphire rod for cantilever. Usually, they are very good - the last one I remember fondly is ADC Astrion. 

 

I will post a pic of "vintage used up junk" cartridge to tone down a bit your tone - proving that once there was a broader range of designs/prices that went beyond range that is available today. But I would  agree that reliability is now better than in the old days.

 

Regarding Achromat - have yet to try it myself, and might skip it altogether going to Achroplat. Skeptical regarding its extremely low mass and moment of inertia - but reports of it giving great bass keep coming from all places.

 

The effectiveness of any LP support can be measured - and I suspect here Achroplat might well be the winner, even against really massive platters.

 

There is one material that tops them all for turntables, but it is now rare, expensive, in the process of being outlawed ( if not already ) - and above all, health hazard/poisonues : mercury.

post #1151 of 3412
Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Even the smartest ppl can make dumb remarks. If you are offended by a word maybe if I rephrase my statement in my native tongue (or German or French) you would understand me better? I'm sorry if I don't catch your sensitivity on the word 'stupid' but it was a modifier on the statement, not your person.
Maybe my experience in the field of 'vintage' is dependent on locality. I don't shop on Audiogon etc. The 2ndH sites I check is only frequented by 'enthousiasts', 'audiophiles' or however you want to call it and there is 1 in 10 really vintage stuff that is worth mentioning > €500. An old Micro Seiki, an old Stax, a fully modified TD160, 2 Technics SL12x0 and that's it. Or if you count a broken Beogram... Yhe bulk of what I see on the regular 2ndH is all junk (>25y at the level of <$250 then). Maybe it all depends on how you look at the world on what catches your attention.

The hifi show I was at last fall had plenty of TT's. Almost every exibitor had one or more. One was specialised in old Thorens's and the price was accordingly. The shop where I buy most of my vinyl introduced a new complete recordplayer for €600 that looked and sounded really good (similar to a Pro-ject Xperience in all perspex with a Ortofon Red cart, level, dustcover and a puck).

There's no way you are going to best that with a 'vintage' TT. Not to mention the regular 2y warranty. There is a lot going on in Europe in the field of vinyl playback and prices are quite different over here. Let me sum up some manufacturers:
UK:
Michell Engineering
Funk Firm
Rega
Linn
Origin Live
Audio Note
Audiomods
Avid
EAT
Loricraft
Lumley
Nottingham Analogue
SME
Decca London
Well Tempered
Roksan
townshend
Wilson Benesch

Germany (+Sw):
Audolabor
Clearaudio
DPS
Transrotor
Dr Feickert
Brinkmann
Dual
Thorens
Marantz
Goldmund
Sheu
Lenco
Pluto Audio
Phonoshophie

And a bit further away to the east:
Kuzma
Pro-ject
and some more French and Italian. And I'm not even counting cartridges... Even the Chinese are chiming in with Opera Audio and Hanns (I seriously considered buying one of those, what am I saying, I own a Opera T988 arm)!
My point is: there's plenty development going on here. The USA is not the center of the world you know.


Quote:
I will post a pic of "vintage used up junk" cartridge
Well, I just bought a Decca Blue... It's as good as new and 40y old. But it's a very... -shall I say quirky?- cart. It really needs a different body than the cheap red plastic/tin can it is now.
Edited by ]eep - 12/30/12 at 7:37pm
post #1152 of 3412
There was nothing dumb about my remark. You simply didn't agree with it. Sorry to tell you, that doesn't make it dumb wink.gif In fact, you seemed to miss the point, which was precisely that you can get what was a very high quality turntable decades ago, in the height of turntable production, for the same or less than an entry level TT costs new today. The cheap turntables from the 70's/80's tended to be thrown out, and the ones that remain can often be purchased for $20 or so. But those I wouldn't recommend, really.

There may well be a much larger availability of good vintage turntables in the USA than in Western Europe. I wouldn't be able to comment on that. But here in the US, finding good condition, good sounding vintage turntables is incredibly easy. It does, as I mentioned, require knowing how to align a cartridge to be an effective buying strategy, however.
post #1153 of 3412

Okay, my apartment is a mess but I've found some old 80s music (found?) in my collection. I've been listening to classical and classic rock for so long that I just thought I'd dig into the 100 or some odd LPs that I've forgotten about. This LP is so clean that I must have only played it only twice. Okay. The music is, well... I like it then.

 

post #1154 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Even the smartest ppl can make dumb remarks. If you are offended by a word maybe if I rephrase my statement in my native tongue (or German or French) you would understand me better? I'm sorry if I don't catch your sensitivity on the word 'stupid' but it was a modifier on the statement, not your person.
Maybe my experience in the field of 'vintage' is dependent on locality. I don't shop on Audiogon etc. The 2ndH sites I check is only frequented by 'enthousiasts', 'audiophiles' or however you want to call it and there is 1 in 10 really vintage stuff that is worth mentioning > €500. An old Micro Seiki, an old Stax, a fully modified TD160, 2 Technics SL12x0 and that's it. Or if you count a broken Beogram... Maybe it all depends on how you look at the world on what catches your attention.
The hifi show I was at last fall had plenty of TT's. Almost every exibitor had one or more. One was specialised in old Thorens's and the price was accordingly. The shop where I buy most of my vinyl introduced a new complete recordplayer for €600 that looked and sounded really good (similar to a Pro-ject Xperience in all perspex with a Ortofon Red cart, level, dustcover and a puck).

There's no way you are going to best that with a 'vintage' TT. Not to mention the regular 2y warranty.
[q]I will post a pic of "vintage used up junk" cartridge[/q]
Well, I just bought a Decca Blue... It's as good as new and 40y old. But it's a very... -shall I say quirky?- cart. It really needs a different body than the cheap red plastic/tin can it is now.

 

Thats funny, my 27 year old Pioneer PL-707 has better wow and flutter and signal:noise specifications than the ProJect Xperience... wink.gif

post #1155 of 3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]eep View Post

So, effectively it does just the same as a felt mat? Isolating ringing in the LP alone. I think an acromat is a better option (but much more expensive). There is no sensible substitute for a massive platter.

 

If a felt mat is better than both rubber and the Achromat, then perhaps. But it's impossible to say, as mat effectiveness seems to be highly turntable-dependent. It goes against conventional wisdom, but there is an ongoing debate regarding whether it best to closely couple your record with a heavy platter and clamp/weight it down, or virtually suspend it in thin air.

 

 

There are many discussions comparing the Reso-mat and the Achromat:

 

"Try a TransFi Reso-Mat - it knocked my old Funk Achromat for 6 in terms of sound quality"

 

"We did a mat comparison on my Pioneer PL-71 (sad folk that we are!).
Pioneer rubber-ribbed mat, Funk Achromat & Reso-mat.
Surprisingly, not much difference betwixt the Pioneer rubber job and the Achromat.
But we both felt that the Reso-mat was superior, and not by a small margin."

 

"Well, I thought the Funk Achromat was well and truly stuck to my platter so I had no choice but to use it as described.
However ... judicious and careful use of a screwdriver and off pops the Achromat! ... I'm currently having a first listen to the Reso-mat straight on to the platter, as recommended by the manufacturer .... even cleaner, less bloom to the sound, better focus, more explicit.
No doubt about it - the Reso-mat has been a substantial upgrade for my LP playback system."

 

Much more here:

 

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=116165

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?s=95f4871e03923c8deadae743bedca470&t=14600

http://www.trans-fi.com/resomat.htm

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