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Rudistor realeased a new flagship amp - Page 9

post #121 of 170

You know, the door is just over there.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhuang View Post

maybe that's why rp030 cast so much?  my jh16 didn't hum with music or no music(pause or stop).  nobody besides me and a couple guys heard of this amp and people here just keep "talking".  mods don't seems to care at all.  good job



 

 

post #122 of 170

BTW, my amp doesn't hum with my RE0. It's gain is 5x. FWIW

post #123 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00940 View Post

Quote:

 

What bothers you in fact ? It seems to me that you're more criticizing the concept of a 20K dynamic headphones amplifier itself. After all, the beta22 topology (or the dynahi if you want) has not much to be ashamed of compared to the Krell or Pass amplifiers you quote and probably could be made to sound just as good (something I wouldn't say about Rudistor's). Maybe even better as we can afford a level of regulation for an headphones amplifier that is unseen in most power amplifiers. There is  virtue in low power and convenience in a "tailored for headphones" device. I could thus understand someone choosing an expensive headphones amplifier over a power amp, as long as this headphones amplifier is truly as good sounding and well-built.

 

A Pass Labs XP20 preamp cost about 10 000$. The gain sections and power supply probably cost in the same ballpark as a beta22, so it's a pretty good reference point. If someone wants to sell a 10k beta22, here's the level of built quality that is expected by the market.

 

 

PS1: I wish we all had the same relaxed attitude towards "audiophile" parts as Nelson Pass. He sees no big deal in using standard vishay resistors and wima, vishay, elna or  panasonic caps rather than boutique stuff. But he knows the electrical properties of all those components inside out and his implementations are perfect. Oh yeah... DS1882 digital pots, even in the most expensive preamps.

PS2: A BHSE from Headamp is about 6K, from memory ?

PS3: A pair of my friends are very happy using power amplifiers and headphones through the good old "Grado adapter" (even with very pedestrian power resistors, go figure).

 

 


Pass spends the money where it is needed but with a distributor/dealer network his production costs are far below the MSRP.  That's why I find the price of the B22 so silly, there was no design work to speak of (nothing above that which goes into any DIY build), no exotic parts used and somehow it costs this much direct from "the manufacturer"?  How on earth can Craig sell his EC amps for so little when he has to do all of the design work (including those rather complex heater supplies) and he's paying people to assemble them?  Same deal with the BHSE of which Justin only planned to sell a handful of units.  Every part of the chassis is custom, with custom PCB's for everything, custom transformers yet it only costs 4.5K$, 5.5K$ with the RK50 pot.  With companies like Pass, Krell, Accuphase you are paying quite a bit for their distributor and dealer networks (every middleman takes a nice cut, probably 50%) so somebody selling direct would be that much cheaper. 

 

I do know that Pass (or somebody at the company) said they'd use Elna Silmic caps if they could afford it. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post


Perhaps what you are failing to realize is that these are not being made in quantity.  When they are finally available for sale, they will be made one at a time with all the custom PCBs manufactured one at a time.  The cost do this is not cheap.  But I don't know what the final cost will be yet, since I am still crunching the numbers.  I certainly want to keep it as low as possible, because that means I can sell more.  And my profit margin on this is extremely low, as I've stated numerous times already.  There isn't much more I can say on the matter.


I deal with the problems of small scale production every day of the year so I'm well aware of the factors here.  I've also designed and produced enough PCB's to know how much that costs (i.e. not a whole lot). 

 

post #124 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post




Pass spends the money where it is needed but with a distributor/dealer network his production costs are far below the MSRP.  That's why I find the price of the B22 so silly, there was no design work to speak of (nothing above that which goes into any DIY build), no exotic parts used and somehow it costs this much direct from "the manufacturer"?  How on earth can Craig sell his EC amps for so little when he has to do all of the design work (including those rather complex heater supplies) and he's paying people to assemble them?  Same deal with the BHSE of which Justin only planned to sell a handful of units.  Every part of the chassis is custom, with custom PCB's for everything, custom transformers yet it only costs 4.5K$, 5.5K$ with the RK50 pot.  With companies like Pass, Krell, Accuphase you are paying quite a bit for their distributor and dealer networks (every middleman takes a nice cut, probably 50%) so somebody selling direct would be that much cheaper.

 

A somewhat common "rule of thumb" is the MRSP representing five times the parts cost. Dealers don't often get 50%. That's usually reserved for overseas distributors who purchase in quantity.

 

However if we use that as an example, and exclude the dealer/distributor network, direct pricing would be about 2.5 times parts cost, which of course is exclusive of labor, overhead, advertising, etc.

 

Quote:
I deal with the problems of small scale production every day of the year so I'm well aware of the factors here.  I've also designed and produced enough PCB's to know how much that costs (i.e. not a whole lot).

 

Then perhaps here's an opportunity to light a candle instead of curse the darkness (or PJ as the case may be).

 

I'm sure PJ's not wanting his amp to be the most expensive to produce. Perhaps you could point him to some fabricators who do high quality work for low prices.

 

Also, I'm curious. Were you as critical of the Pinnacle's $10,000 price tag?

 

se

 

 

 

 

post #125 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by baka1969 View Post

BTW, my amp doesn't hum with my RE0. It's gain is 5x. FWIW



The RE0 has a sensitivity of 100dB which is not nearly as sensitive as the Shures that I mentioned at 119dB. I also tried Beta 22 amps with headphones with sensitivities around 100dB and even 108dB and didn't hear a hum, but I'm yet to hear a B22 that doesn't hum with the Shures.

 

The attenuator position has no effect on this hum that I'm talking about - it's there even when the attenuator is set to off.

 

It would be nice if someone had a commercial version of the balanced Beta 22 without any noise problems even with the Shures - I would pay extra for it.

 

post #126 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jian View Post




Tried it, shocked mebiggrin.gif

 

I think 030 is very good but not extremely. IMHO, though, don't plug your MD1 pro to it, bad combination.

 

There is a slight problem with this 030.  Earphones "pop" when plugging to it, even 600 ohm T1. When plugging MD1 to it, I heard the "pop" sound without even putting them on.

 

What puzzles me, is that why can't an amp start up without a pop. I can understand a RA-1. But with an amp in this price range, why not build in a protective circuit that has has a safety delay, then when it's time to turn on the amp, can't it have enough filters that silence the pop, upon final turn on, and pre- arrange the surge so that it doesn't pop your way into a headache. Perhaps my degree isn't enough to understand this, but certainly, the in-rush should be able to be quelled enough that on a $5k and above amp, avoids this problem.

Perhaps the amp can take an inverse sine wave that will cancel out the pop, like they do in cars like Lexus's, where you don't hear the output of the muffler. If you can take a mike to a stereo system to adjust the surround sound dB's in the sweet spot, an amp of such magnitude, amp manufacturers should be able to avoid a loud noise at start up.
 

 

post #127 of 170

Good startup circuits definitely exist. AMB makes one.

 

You would never here a turn on pop from a krell,levinson,ayre...

They all have significant safety circuits.

 

Most are too young to remember the turn off surge of a

phase linear 700. It could and did blow the output fuses.

post #128 of 170

Quote:Originally Posted by kevin gilmore 

"Good startup circuits definitely exist. AMB makes one.
You would never here a turn on pop from a krell,levinson,ayre...They all have significant safety circuits.
Most are too young to remember the turn off surge of aphase linear 700. It could and did blow the output fuses."


Mine has the start up circuit and doesn't pop.

post #129 of 170

Quote:Originally Posted by visualguy 





"The RE0 has a sensitivity of 100dB which is not nearly as sensitive as the Shures that I mentioned at 119dB. I also tried Beta 22 amps with headphones with sensitivities around 100dB and even 108dB and didn't hear a hum, but I'm yet to hear a B22 that doesn't hum with the Shures.
The attenuator position has no effect on this hum that I'm talking about - it's there even when the attenuator is set to off.
It would be nice if someone had a commercial version of the balanced Beta 22 without any noise problems even with the Shures - I would pay extra for it."


I actually had the SE535 with my b22 before I had it (the amp) send out for work. I never did plug it into the b22 though. I sold the Shure shortly after I received them and didn't think of it at the time. That said, there really isn't a one-size-fits-all amp that's perfect at everything. Ask the many members on Head-Fi that have multiple amps. :) It's also part of the reason I don't have the HE6. The way I have the b22 configured won't have it fully and perfectly drive every headphone to it's absolute potential. I suspect the uber expensive b22 build in this thread can't either.

post #130 of 170

Well, all this talk amount the beta22 buzzing got me curious. The most sensitive IEM I have is Senn CX380 which has a sensitivity of 113 dB and 18 ohm impedance. I hear no hum in either hd600s or lcd2 for reference, and my gain is set at 5. Normally I only use the Senn when in the gym because quite frankly it sounds like crap but claims to be sweat proof. I plugged it in using a 1/4 inch adapter - hum out of the left channel but not the right.

 

This got me all paranoid about my wiring and grounding so I opened up the case to see if I could figure out the problem. It just so happens that my beta22 is stacked on top of my sigma22, and the left channel board is right over the transformer. When I unstacked the two boxes to open the amp up, there is no hum out of either channel. I am willing to bet a lot of the hum issues with very sensitive IEMs are due to the transformer, especially in the case where it is more noticeable in one channel than the other.

 

I would never be able to use a gain of 5 with headphones that sensitive though as I had barely any volume control. I think a gain of 2 or even 1 would be more appropriate.

 

Oh and I also use amb's startup circuit, the epsilon 12 and have no pop.

post #131 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

How about a B22 with a High (10X) and Low (5X) gain switch? Is it possible?

Could drive the HE-6s down to my Ed. 8s.


As mentioned earlier, too many things to change per board. I would just set the gain at 5x or 8x, then use a shunt and/or parallel setup for the pot and use a switch to select the resistor values. Parallel config with a low value resistors can get you fine control at low levels (but it will ramp up very quickly at high levels).

 

post #132 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armaegis View Post




As mentioned earlier, too many things to change per board. I would just set the gain at 5x or 8x, then use a shunt and/or parallel setup for the pot and use a switch to select the resistor values. Parallel config with a low value resistors can get you fine control at low levels (but it will ramp up very quickly at high levels).

 


I realize that, I'm just saying regardless, there is likely a market for a new B22...say B23 that has enough gain to properly drive say the HE-6s all the way down to low impedance cans like Grados or Denons. I know I would be interested.
post #133 of 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcg27 View Post
This got me all paranoid about my wiring and grounding so I opened up the case to see if I could figure out the problem. It just so happens that my beta22 is stacked on top of my sigma22, and the left channel board is right over the transformer. When I unstacked the two boxes to open the amp up, there is no hum out of either channel. I am willing to bet a lot of the hum issues with very sensitive IEMs are due to the transformer, especially in the case where it is more noticeable in one channel than the other.
 
I would never be able to use a gain of 5 with headphones that sensitive though as I had barely any volume control. I think a gain of 2 or even 1 would be more appropriate.


Any Beta22 build that I've read about seems to use stock off-the-shelf toroidal transformers.  Some are potted but none seem to have electrostatic shielding between the windings.  The custom Plitron transformers in my amp are both shielded and potted.  For anyone building or purchasing their own Beta22 regardless of how much they choose to spend on it, this is a wise course of action to take but it will cost you extra.

 

A gain of 2 on a four board build with a stepped attenuator like the DACT CT2-4 is perfect with the HD800 using balanced inputs with a level of 4-5V.  My DAC is rated for 5.33V output and I never feel like I am missing any steps.  Of course that will vary depending on the headphone you are using, and if you are using an HE-6 you would likely want a gain of at least 5, probably 8 or 11.


Edited by IPodPJ - 4/3/11 at 5:40pm
post #134 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcg27 View Post

 

This got me all paranoid about my wiring and grounding so I opened up the case to see if I could figure out the problem. It just so happens that my beta22 is stacked on top of my sigma22, and the left channel board is right over the transformer. When I unstacked the two boxes to open the amp up, there is no hum out of either channel. I am willing to bet a lot of the hum issues with very sensitive IEMs are due to the transformer, especially in the case where it is more noticeable in one channel than the other.



Direct stacking is definitely a no-no with the Beta 22... By the way, your B22 may still hum with the Shures even if it doesn't hum with the Senns.

 

I believe that 3-channel Beta 22 amps with the backplane board are less susceptible to hum than the 4-channel ones, but I'm not sure.

 

post #135 of 170


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by visualguy View Post





Direct stacking is definitely a no-no with the Beta 22... By the way, your B22 may still hum with the Shures even if it doesn't hum with the Senns.

 

I believe that 3-channel Beta 22 amps with the backplane board are less susceptible to hum than the 4-channel ones, but I'm not sure.

 


Yea I realize it's not ideal but there is really no space to expand sideways. I might need to invest in some sort of rack to get them further apart though. Although like I said I don't hear any hum with my full sized cans and the senn iems aren't worth the wear and tear on the power supply relays to use them lol. If I ever get a nice pair of iems I might change my mind though.

 

BTW mine is a 3 channel build w/ e22 backplane. 

 

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