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Good Power Cord article from 6 Moons - Page 3

post #31 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post





Isn't this a DBT-free forum to discuss the experiences of cables without being badgered by mods?


he's a member first and a mod second.  makes a lot of sense, doesn't it rolleyes.gif?

 

post #32 of 64

I've been wondering. Is the ban specifically on DBT (double blind testing)? Or on anything at all that would be placebo controlled?

 

And is it just in the cables sub-forum, or throughout the entire site except for the science sub-forum?

 

 

post #33 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoga Flame View Post

I've been wondering. Is the ban specifically on DBT (double blind testing)? Or on anything at all that would be placebo controlled?

 

And is it just in the cables sub-forum, or throughout the entire site except for the science sub-forum?

 

 


Good point.  I think several things are worth mentioning. 

 

1.  This thread specifically is about an article that generally speaks to the benefits of good power cords and the impact on sound quality.  The article itself was laughable.  In that context, I think all bets are off on the DBT ban because the thread directly opened the debate.  It wasn't simply a thread in which someone gave their impression about a cord in particular.  I think if that were the case, then yes it would would be quite rude to jump in and start a debate.

 

2.  As a scientist, I believe it is my responsibility to call shenanigans on stuff like this.  I mean no offense to anyone, but the notion of power cords affecting sound quality is in the same realm as homeopathy.  It's really quite nutty.

 

3.  Lastly, it's not really an issue of DBT yet.  In order for a DBT to come into play, first an actual measurable difference needs to be produced.  Without this, there is no need for DBT discussion.  Only after a measurable difference can be demonstrated would DBT even be considered.  At that point, DBT would help inform us if a difference actually can be heard.

 


Edited by ert - 3/25/11 at 9:15pm
post #34 of 64

I think it's much easier on the wallet if you don't believe or bother with aftermarket power cords.

 

I know that when I had my Chord dac, I couldn't listen to it with the stock cord. 

 

I do find it laughable though on audiogon when I see the power cords costing more than components being sold on there.

post #35 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post





Isn't this a DBT-free forum to discuss the experiences of cables without being badgered by mods?

It's a legitimate question.

You have to calibrate meters and 'scopes to ensure their accuracy. Why not test humans to ensure their accuracy, too?

If someone claims to hear a difference, it should be controlled for. I think people should be tested with deliberately altered equipment. If someone cannot hear a 1dB difference between channels, for example, then why should their opinion be taken seriously for unmeasurable differences?

As for moderation, I can delete posts, close threads and even ban people. I never have in these debates. I'm not afraid of argument. I don't agree with you, but you're always civil and never cross the line. You deserve to have your say, whether I agree with you or not.

If people assert the unprovable, I'll call them on it. These discussions should be entirely open and uncensored. Everyone should see the argument.

And argument is *not* a personal thing whatsoever. I unquestionably love my cat, even though the little demon thinks she belongs on the kitchen counter.
post #36 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vert View Post

I think it's much easier on the wallet if you don't believe or bother with aftermarket power cords.

 

I know that when I had my Chord dac, I couldn't listen to it with the stock cord. 

 

I do find it laughable though on audiogon when I see the power cords costing more than components being sold on there.


Although rare, there are certain power cords which when used with certain components make them sound like a component upgrade.

The only logical thing is that it probably has something to do with the safety ground being a source of noise and some power cords deal with this better than others.

Other than that there really is no other reason why they should affect the sound quality.  To my ears they usually make a bigger difference than interconnects.

In many cases though the differences can be minor and written off as placebo.

 

But as far as the article goes that the OP referenced, well there is not much to say other than rolleyes.gif

 


Edited by IPodPJ - 3/26/11 at 12:48am
post #37 of 64
for attenuation to occur the frequency should be as high as of GHz not in 50 or 60 hz which is frequency of electrical signal.
post #38 of 64

 

Simply because it is too complex to be measured. Perceiving and hearing music is not only related to FR accuracy or HRTF. There is a LOT more to it as you surely know, beeing a trained musician yourself. The point is that it is very seldomly mentioned, when it is probably the most crucial aspect of all this audiophile hobby. The listening experience vary from one single individual to the other, and our level of listening awareness is influenced by multiple factors (musical training, exposure and relation to sounds, defensive listening, etc...). There someone put it in better words than I do: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/listen.htm 

 

I strongly recommend the reading of this book:

 

listn_sm.jpg

 

 

It is written for musicians but is perfectly indicated for audiophile in seek of their "own sound". It can be a true hear-opener and will give you clues as to why every one of us do have different listening skills and preferences.

 

So yes, for some, power cords won't make any difference, and for others it can be a make or break listening experience. The point is knowing what matters to YOU and not speculate on what should matter to others, because it is nonsense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

You have to calibrate meters and 'scopes to ensure their accuracy. Why not test humans to ensure their accuracy, too?

If someone claims to hear a difference, it should be controlled for. I think people should be tested with deliberately altered equipment. If someone cannot hear a 1dB difference between channels, for example, then why should their opinion be taken seriously for unmeasurable differences?


 


Edited by shamu144 - 3/26/11 at 1:30am
post #39 of 64
Then how come no one has ever passed an unsighted listening test?
post #40 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

Then how come no one has ever passed an unsighted listening test?


That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.

That would give you a pretty definitive answer.

post #41 of 64

I think several cable manufacturer (Synergistic Research, Isotek, etc...) are already regularly organizing events in dealer shops to demonstrate the benefits of proper attention to cabling and power conditioning. For me, their is no need to go further than just a little bit of good will and self involvement rather than sistematically calling out the scientist community to elaborate a thesis on a subject with such a limited repercussion. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post

That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.

That would give you a pretty definitive answer.



 

 

post #42 of 64

6 Moons sucks.  The linked article does nothing to refute that statement.


 

post #43 of 64


But unless they have been trained in critical listening or have a "golden ear" (a term I've seen used in Stereophile) how can we be sure they are hearing things properly? The unwashed and untrained masses aren't qualified to make valid, critical (but still subjective) judgments on what they hear. It's best we leave that to the ex spurts who make their living by writing about equipment that "punches out of it's weight class". confused.gif 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post




That's one thing we could do, test the cables and cords on blind people who have superior hearing acuity and wouldn't be influenced by sight.

That would give you a pretty definitive answer.



 

post #44 of 64



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadcykler View Post


But unless they have been trained in critical listening or have a "golden ear" (a term I've seen used in Stereophile) how can we be sure they are hearing things properly? The unwashed and untrained masses aren't qualified to make valid, critical (but still subjective) judgments on what they hear. It's best we leave that to the ex spurts who make their living by writing about equipment that "punches out of it's weight class". confused.gif


Sadly merely making a living from doing it is no guarantee that somebody is any good at something, training is however important but proper training needs to be rigorous and when Harman tested different sets of listeners they found that audio retailers did better than audio reviewers but neither group were within a mile of actually formally trained listeners...

 



 

post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn&cough View Post

Yeah it must be the placenta effect. Strange that I can't hear it with certain tubes or any of the other cables including the Venom. Also strange that AFTER trying the Siltech I did a search on the web and discovered that others had experienced the same characteristics.  The placenta works in mysterious ways.



awesome.  i dont know about power cables, but i do know that the 8$ power cord i got from amazon searching "hospital grade power cord" is the same i paid 40$ for with a different power cord provider.  same numbers, writing, everything on each cable.

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