Dunning–Kruger Effect - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthanWiner 

^^^ I understand, but I wanted to agree that most magazine reviewers are amateur "listeners." This is why so many of them can't distinguish reality from fantasy.

 

--Ethan

Well, this is where psychology and semantics intersect. Technically the rag reviewers are professional as they do it for a living, this does not mean they are a priori good at it or any better than any random individual on a case by case basis.

As for your 2nd point there are a whole slew of group psychology, cognitive bias and belief system elements at play that influence how any cohesive group adopt the world view they do, we can argue, unkindly perhaps, that many of these show what might be described as magical thinking and many seem incapable of detecting gross errors or interpret those errors as some kind of sonic character despite not being able to adequately explain the etiology. Facsinating really, I almost regret abandoning psychology for IT
 

Is this discussion not about how good people are at spotting differences, that may not actually be there? So how do we rate those who are best, the untrained who potentially correctly say there is no difference, or those who are trained and claim a differences, that is not actually there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man 

Is this discussion not about how good people are at spotting differences, that may not actually be there? So how do we rate those who are best, the untrained who potentially correctly say there is no difference, or those who are trained and claim a differences, that is not actually there?

You introduce sets of stimulae pairs which are either same or different, and adjusting for the bias to say different you test subjects responses (Same or different) so you can fill the cells of the different----------same (X) and difference detected---------------no difference detected(y)  2 x 2 matrix.  

So you have correct-detections, correct-rejections, false-positives and false-negatives then you can work out how accurate the subjects are...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthanWiner 

Indeed. Nothing beats years of using equalizers and compressors, and editing / splicing music and narration, and singing or playing a musical instrument at a high level, to make you a skilled listener. That's very different from sitting around listening to your phonograph all day.

 

--Ethan

easy for you if you're ethan winer and can both record and play cello at a highly proficient level yourself. as someone whose cello skills are withering with each passing year, and who was never as involved with recording, I'd like to defend listening as something that can in fact be learned and needs to be improved in continuous training. it's much harder for people who never got really far with an instrument and rigorous musical practice - but I have to believe that it is possible. some of the most ardent music lovers I know have learned to train their ears and minds and only later realized they should pick up an instrument to get a bit further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by melomaniac 

I'd like to defend listening as something that can in fact be learned and needs to be improved in continuous training. .

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/03/method-for-training-listeners-and.html

yes, I had posted that elsewhere: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/544667/harman-how-to-listen-free-software#post_7344966
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles 

 

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/03/method-for-training-listeners-and.html

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by melomaniac 

it's much harder for people who never got really far with an instrument and rigorous musical practice - but I have to believe that it is possible. some of the most ardent music lovers I know have learned to train their ears and minds and only later realized they should pick up an instrument to get a bit further.

That you even played at all gives you a huge advantage over those who never played anything. And surely even non-musicians can learn to be skilled listeners!

--Ethan

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthanWiner 

That you even played at all gives you a huge advantage over those who never played anything. And surely even non-musicians can learn to be skilled listeners!

 

--Ethan

well, if I hadn't broken my wrist falling off a tree as a teen, I might have gone pro. at that time I was better than my sister on her violin, and she's a full-time pro now... but in the end, I am glad I went a completely different way. - yes, it's a big difference to have played in a real band/orchestra/quartet and performed under real-life conditions (incl. stress and so forth) because you can understand a little better what goes into successful concerts and recordings (beginning with thousands of hours of practice, no way around that). however, in the end I feel like it's even more important to train the brain in listening and to keep expanding horizons. playing an instrument seriously is one great path to doing this, but there are other paths (and perhaps some are less time-consuming, I don't know).