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Frequency Response Curves - Page 2

post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Like Shike said, swept-sine is the way to go. In fact it's an optimal excitation signal for headphones.


I agree with Shike at this point, I was just saying that the standard currently seems to be an impulse response.

 

At least i think I was, I'm really tired

 

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGreen View Post

I agree with Shike at this point, I was just saying that the standard currently seems to be an impulse response.

 

At least i think I was, I'm really tired

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor View Post

 

The actual impulse response is derived mathematically.

 

 

post #18 of 28

Haha oh yeah, sor

ry

post #19 of 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

From a quick look you can tell that the grados are the same or worse. Most other headphones look fine imo, so nothing to really worry about.

 

 

 

This is what I've noticed about headphones too, I have yet to see headphone of even moderate quality going greater than 1% in distortion at ~90dB.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I think headphones have started hitting the brick wall in terms of performance in a lot of ways. 
 
Originally Posted by MrGreen View Post


I agree with Shike at this point, I was just saying that the standard currently seems to be an impulse response.

 

The world's ending right . . . right!?

 

 

post #20 of 28

Hmm there still is room for improvement. Just take at look at HD650 measurements compared to other (high-end) headphones. This thing has like no distortion, very flat frequency and phase response, etc. ...


Edited by xnor - 3/14/11 at 11:49am
post #21 of 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Hmm there still is room for improvement. Just take at look at HD650 measurements compared to other (high-end) headphones. This thing has like no distortion, very flat frequency and phase response, etc. ...

 

Look at the K601: flattest DF frequency response, also low distortion, etc.

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

Look at the K601: flattest DF frequency response, also low distortion, etc.

 

Headroom's the only measurement system* I've seen where it looks flat, everywhere else it's not as flat/smooth as the HD600/650 or even HD598. Actually I don't think it even could be based on a comparison of the constructions/innards.

Don't wanna bash any headphones though, ok grados maybe, I'm sure it's a nice headphone.

 

*) especially in the treble region it's quite inaccurate, imo

post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post

 

Look at the K601: flattest DF frequency response, also low distortion, etc.


Although I don't think that it matters audibly, harmonic distortion is where the K601 seems to perform below average.

4ijyqc.png

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

 

Headroom's the only measurement system* I've seen where it looks flat, everywhere else it's not as flat/smooth as the HD600/650 or even HD598. Actually I don't think it even could be based on a comparison of the constructions/innards.

Don't wanna bash any headphones though, ok grados maybe, I'm sure it's a nice headphone.

 

*) especially in the treble region it's quite inaccurate, imo

I assume you do not consider the K701/2 to be fairly flat either then, do you?

2i8cc8x.png

 

I'm surprised that of all the headphones, you mention the HD650 as being supposedly "very flat", since the HD650 is usually reported as a warm, laid-back headphone, a description which is also supported by the HeadRoom measurement. I'm also surprised that you lump the HD650 and HD600 together.

21ka2rd.png


Edited by inarc - 3/15/11 at 5:07pm
post #24 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by inarc View Post

I assume you do not consider the K701/2 to be fairly flat either then, do you?

 

Flatter than some other headphones but not as flat as the HD600 for example.

 

<headroom graph>

 

Yeah, inaccurate imho.

 

I'm surprised that of all the headphones, you mention the HD650 as being supposedly flat, since the HD650 is usually reported as a warm, laid-back headphone, a description which is also supported by the HeadRoom measurement. I'm also surprised that you lump the HD650 and HD600 together.

 

I said not as flat/smooth as the HD600/HD650, in other words not as flat as the HD600 nor as smooth as the HD650.

 

Answers in bold.

post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

 

Headroom's the only measurement system* I've seen where it looks flat, everywhere else it's not as flat/smooth as the HD600/650 or even HD598. Actually I don't think it even could be based on a comparison of the constructions/innards.

Don't wanna bash any headphones though, ok grados maybe, I'm sure it's a nice headphone.

 

*) especially in the treble region it's quite inaccurate, imo


Links to where you're finding these measurements at?  They are using professional measuring dummy heads and using DF equalization correct?  If not then that pretty much explains the whole difference.  Seriously, I find K601 measurements very few and far between . . . so if you know of some place that has them besides Headroom with similar quality equipment for testing I'd like to see it.  I'd also like to see which site shows the HD600/HD650 as flat, because they sound anything but it ime :|


I'd also like to know what you mean exactly by the section I've made bold.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inarc View Post


Although I don't think that it matters audibly, harmonic distortion is where the K601 seems to perform below average.

 

 

-50dB from input signal is less than half a percent of distortion.  Think about that for a moment . . .


Edited by Shike - 3/15/11 at 3:51pm
post #26 of 28

I think the major flaw with headroom measurements is that they use the same HRTF for all headphones, regardless of design criteria. Ideally, I think they should be also providing measurements involving moller's compensations for diffuse field, and other compensations for free-field (even if they use their own head, I don't mind ,but that's harder work).

 

Speakers change their sound based on the sound field, so I think that removing that variable is a false mechanic, even if you are using direction independant compensations.

 

I also think headroom has made some erroneous compensations for canalphones based on my listening experience and what various companies (i.e. etymotic) tell people. But that's just a guess and there's no real way to find out without raw data.

 

My perfect system would be to have raw data provided for the headphones, and have the ability to plot the HRTF, and Moller et al. findings. And then to subtract them, if you wished. But that's a hard ask.


Edited by MrGreen - 3/15/11 at 7:40pm
post #27 of 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGreen View Post

I think the major flaw with headroom measurements is that they use the same HRTF for all headphones, regardless of design criteria. Ideally, I think they should be also providing measurements involving moller's compensations for diffuse field, and other compensations for free-field (even if they use their own head, I don't mind ,but that's harder work).

 

Speakers change their sound based on the sound field, so I think that removing that variable is a false mechanic, even if you are using direction independant compensations.

 

I also think headroom has made some erroneous compensations for canalphones based on my listening experience and what various companies (i.e. etymotic) tell people. But that's just a guess and there's no real way to find out without raw data.

 

My perfect system would be to have raw data provided for the headphones, and have the ability to plot the HRTF, and Moller et al. findings. And then to subtract them, if you wished. But that's a hard ask.



You can get the raw data in graph form without equalization, but that seems to be about it:

 

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=701

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=702

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=703

 

As for IEM measurements, I imagine they're notoriously hard to measure accurately just because of how the slightest change in fit can seem to cause drastic changes.

post #28 of 28


simple. frequencies bounce around. it comes down to the recording itself on how the frequencies bounce in the air and how our ears perceive it. stereo speakers are the same way. people wonder why they can hear instruments behind them or side of them. people nowadays think only surround sound can give that 3d sounstage cause of multiple speakers which is not true at all. surround sound just makes it easier for your avg consumer to achive that 3d sound much easier without the need of proper room adjustments and speaker placement experiments.

also every single sound that comes from a headphone or speaker is always ''colored'' in a way. always. it flattens out as soon as it hits our ear drum but why does it still sound different on each instrument you wonder? it's due to harmonics in the air that give the instrument that certain ''sound''. if it wasn't for harmonics every sound,every instrument will all sound the same. there is fundemental frequencies and there is harmonic frequencies. how we perceive those harmonics is the beuaty of music and sound. we all hear different. anything around us can alter the sound on how we hear it. that's why every signle review you see you should take with grain of salt,all the time. it doesn't matter if the person been an expert muscian for years or your avg music lover. best way to find out what sound you like is to personally hear it  but it can be very diffacult. so we relay on what we read that fits close to our instrest in sound to make a purchasing decision. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post



 

How do audio engineers produce the 3-D soundstage in headphones anyhow? It seems like it would be a rather difficult task considering the headphones are only left and right speakers.
 

 



 

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