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Some cable measurments - Page 2

post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalo View Post




Nick, the problem is inherent in the design of this study, as you decided to do multiple sampling (i.e 10x) you are going to incur inter-measurement variation and other random errors that has to be control for.  So you are forced to use averaging to minimize any random errors.  

 

Correct

 

And unfortunately in this case, the actual variations of the inter and intra value for each cable and between cables may be much smaller than the inter-measurement and random errors

 

Agreed

 

and by doing averaging to adjust for the error, you are destroying the actual value also.

 

However if we can say with some confidence that the inter-cable differences are less than the inter-measurement differences then the cable differences are smaller than the measured differences, i.e the test actually exaggerates the differences between cables. Which is consistent with what other loopback type tests have shown.

 

Actually I think with some cleverer maths it migth still be possible to get an accurate picture as we know the level of random variation for cable A and the level of random variation for cable B, I think it is possible to pick the cable differences out from that if there are any differences between these two levels of variation, sadly my maths is not that good.

 

 

In fact, I really do not think you need to do multiple sampling.  You are right to assume that cables behave more consistent and as such, you could have a single trial design (ABAB) with much longer recordings with multiple sampling points.  

 

My software will only allow 23.8 seconds per sample but it can be sampled at higher frequency i.e up to 32K FFT.

 

 

I'm done anyway but I have a measuring device available if you want to volunteer to extend this study ?

 

 

 

 

 



 

post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

However if we can say with some confidence that the inter-cable differences are less than the inter-measurement differences then the cable differences are smaller than the measured differences, i.e the test actually exaggerates the differences between cables. Which is consistent with what other loopback type tests have shown.

 

Actually I think with some cleverer maths it migth still be possible to get an accurate picture as we know the level of random variation for cable A and the level of random variation for cable B, I think it is possible to pick the cable differences out from that if there are any differences between these two levels of variation, sadly my maths is not that good.


Nick, you are too humble. If you can do or even just understand the concept of one way ANOVA and FFT, your math is better than the majority of people I knew.  I felt the actual value of the variation in cables is nested in some of the measurements but you are right I believe there is a way to tease out the various values.  I'll think about this more.

 



 

post #18 of 31

Thinking about the statistics for this, it would be fairly simple to do a non-parametric test on the differences between cables. (I don't think that the measurements meet the requirements for something like ANOVA or even pairwise t-tests.) I'd be happy to do the tests if you want to send me the data.

 

I'll explain the tests and assumptions as part of any analysis, to keep things as transparent as possible.

post #19 of 31

Sounds great, Nick, you should take him up on that offer, wow.

post #20 of 31

Can I ask which A/D converter you used to record the sound back to your PC?

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hearMotion View Post

Can I ask which A/D converter you used to record the sound back to your PC?


For the first tests I used the Edirol UA-1EX but later it turned out that the $29 Behringer UCA202 was far far far far more linear at lower levels and had lower noise levels and was more consistent across trials, and so the later tests used that. From what I can make out the A/D process (UCA202) was accurate to about 16 bits (based on the measured noise with digital silence) but I am hoping someone here who owns a Behringer can at some point test the AD process more formally wink.gif

 

I kept debating getting a better ADC but I needed one that had USB, RCA analog inputs,, works with a Wintel machine and was measurably substantially better and I simply could not find one at a manageable price.

 


Edited by nick_charles - 3/10/11 at 5:51am
post #22 of 31

Ah you are now at the opposite end of the game. Just as there are multi thousand dollar D/A converters discussed on this site, so too are A/D converters. Its been a long while since I was in the business of recommending an A/D to anyone. Head over to gearslutz and see what the FOTM is there...

A Berry UCA202 is kinda satiscraptory though. There must be something more accurate slightly further up the price/value scale. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

I kept debating getting a better ADC but I needed one that had USB, RCA analog inputs,, works with a Wintel machine and was measurably substantially better and I simply could not find one at a manageable price.

 



 

post #23 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hearMotion View Post

A Berry UCA202 is kinda satiscraptory though. There must be something more accurate slightly further up the price/value scale. 


Sadly no, there is not , the Edirol is 3x the price (and is worse) and the nearest affordable option I found at $150 was discontinued and that was only marginally better and not verifiably so, the Behringer performs  much better than it should do in terms of residual noise and linearity. My needs were quite speficic, it had to have USB and it had to have RCA analog inputs. Most other recorders have TRS connections, but since the RCA plug is a fundamental part of the cable under test I could not bodge around this.



 



 

post #24 of 31

Great work, Nick!

 

Now, do the same with competent amps/DACs and we may convert a few more people to our cause!

post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TStewart422 View Post

Great work, Nick!

 

Now, do the same with competent amps/DACs and we may convert a few more people to our cause!



 

Please do not think I have an agenda beyond questioning what is real and what is imaginary, though I consider myself a skeptic we have seen that DBTs show that DACS in circuit  may be different, nwavguy's experiements allowed others to DBT samples from different DACs and in at least two cases members were able to DBT different DACs. If you have been following that thread download the samples and run them through Audacity and plot the Spectra, export it to Excel and chart it, the DACS are quite noticeably different which did surprise me. At first glance they look very similar but there are deviations between DACS of 3 to 5 db at points. The point being that the differences can be measured and do not need to be imagined. The corollary of this is that many people (self included) were unable to DBT the samples, samples that differed by up to 5db which is quite a lot, interesting.

 

True, tests from Spanish site matrixhifi showed audiophile listeners unable to distinguish between $12000 CD players and $200 DVD players or between boutique set-up and low end kit , or between a Benchmark DAC and a Behringer DAC, but everything has to be judged on a case by case basis.

 

That said I would be very surprised if anyone can DBT two normal cables.

 

Nick

post #26 of 31

Hiya Nick

 

Glad to see this thread up and running again.

 

USG

post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

Please do not think I have an agenda beyond questioning what is real and what is imaginary, though I consider myself a skeptic we have seen that DBTs show that DACS in circuit  may be different, nwavguy's experiements allowed others to DBT samples from different DACs and in at least two cases members were able to DBT different DACs. If you have been following that thread download the samples and run them through Audacity and plot the Spectra, export it to Excel and chart it, the DACS are quite noticeably different which did surprise me. At first glance they look very similar but there are deviations between DACS of 3 to 5 db at points. The point being that the differences can be measured and do not need to be imagined. The corollary of this is that many people (self included) were unable to DBT the samples, samples that differed by up to 5db which is quite a lot, interesting.

 

True, tests from Spanish site matrixhifi showed audiophile listeners unable to distinguish between $12000 CD players and $200 DVD players or between boutique set-up and low end kit , or between a Benchmark DAC and a Behringer DAC, but everything has to be judged on a case by case basis.

 

That said I would be very surprised if anyone can DBT two normal cables.

 

Nick

Well, that just puts a bee in my bonnet. And I thought I was doing good with my EMU0404. You mean it's possible that it's NOT razor flat? Crap.

post #28 of 31

You're talking about impedance interactions between amp and headphones, right?  Or did you do a DAC output sample-by-sample comparison without taking phase shift into account?


Edited by xnor - 3/19/11 at 8:27am
post #29 of 31
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStewart422 View Post

Well, that just puts a bee in my bonnet. And I thought I was doing good with my EMU0404. You mean it's possible that it's NOT razor flat? Crap.


http://www.amb.org/rmaa/e-mu/E-MU_0404_USB_loopback_unbal_16b_44k.htm

 

The 0404 looks pretty flat to me .....

post #30 of 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

http://www.amb.org/rmaa/e-mu/E-MU_0404_USB_loopback_unbal_16b_44k.htm

 

The 0404 looks pretty flat to me .....

biggrin.gif

 

Looks like I have a new resource!

 

Thanks!

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