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post #2191 of 3830
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

LCD2 has a 15 dB shelf at the high end. It's not ultrabright I'm after, it's that many headphones actually feature rolloffs or shelves at the high end.

Have a graph: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANRE272.pdf - but Tyll used the long tips, which sound attenuated in the air a lot to me. I preferred their short biflanges a lot, except for the fit.

 

And these I use daily - they have some resonance (not just some boost) around 9k, but otherwise are rolled off - despite that, tonal balance is pretty good:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohm.pdf

They still need some EQ in this high end range though.

 

The perfect sound would probably be either like Hifiman HE-400 (but with less distortion) or HE-500. Or perhaps Stax SR-007 Mk1 sans the subbass cut or Stax SR-404 - that one was great, but ugly like a dog. (For comparison, newer Stax SR-507 is just as bright, but much less airy.)

 

Senn HD800 is also relatively close, but too hot in the lower highs and bit less airy than either of the above.

 

Are you sure you don't have airiness and brightness mixed up? Linear highest end (>12k) causes airiness to me, unless there are resonances - these sound harsh and grainy.

Brightness is a different beast, it has 2 kinds: the sibilant/crunch kind at 4-6k and sparkle kind at 8-10k. 10k-12k is interesting, in that it changes soundstaging more than the balance, but if there's too much, it sounds glassy and brittle.

 

And no, my SE-5 don't have that short ear canal part, but the fit is a bit imperfect. That shouldn't affect response this much.

 

From how you describe things, the NT-6 could be what you are looking for, but then I am still not sure.  I consider it very bright, but can say with the Whiplash Hybrid V3 cable it makes me really want to grab for it.  There are several other NT-6 owners now, so if you did want to pursue it I would recommend asking for more opinions to help you "decode" the sound.

 

 

700

post #2192 of 3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by average_joe View Post

 

From how you describe things, the NT-6 could be what you are looking for, but then I am still not sure.  I consider it very bright, but can say with the Whiplash Hybrid V3 cable it makes me really want to grab for it.  There are several other NT-6 owners now, so if you did want to pursue it I would recommend asking for more opinions to help you "decode" the sound.

 

 

700

Or the even brighter NT6 pro.

post #2193 of 3830

Looks nearly right except that huge cliff of uncorrectable rolloff > 13 kHz. If SE-5 is indeed the airiest IEM out there second only to Hifiman's RE272 (and others of this series), I rest my case and will try to recase them repeatedly until I get it right. mad.gif

 

In what way is NT-6 pro brighter? Higher or wider 10k peak, more air or flatter 4-6k part? I see it's slightly forward, but not a lot.


Edited by AstralStorm - 11/10/12 at 4:28pm
post #2194 of 3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Looks nearly right except that huge cliff of uncorrectable rolloff > 13 kHz. If SE-5 is indeed the airiest IEM out there second only to Hifiman's RE272 (and others of this series), I rest my case and will try to recase them repeatedly until I get it right. mad.gif

In what way is NT-6 pro brighter? Higher or wider 10k peak, more air or flatter 4-6k part? I see it's slightly forward, but not a lot.

Yep more and wider emphasis and at 10 k, flatter 4-7k, but less linear from 16k than 5 way.
That's why I said probably NT6 pro which is supposed to be what you want if I read the review right (even a bit more emphasis at 4-7k, and boosted treble so it wont roll off as much as NT6,but I guess the treble still won't be as extended as 5 way)What about fit ear 334, or akg3003. Or try some more full size headphones.

By the way, I do find 4-8k region of NT6 sounds the most neutral to my ears, but I am sensitive to sibilance like I said, can't take more than that.
Edited by tupac0306 - 11/10/12 at 5:29pm
post #2195 of 3830

After reading this I went to look at the graphs of many drivers that are commonly used for IEMs. It's interesting to see that the graphs all suck at high frequencies. They usually hit rock bottom at 10k. What drivers are actually good for different frequencies? I know the CI22955 and the HC23761 are usually used for bass, the ED29689, TWFK, FED30048, DTEC are usually used for mids, and the WBFK for highs? It seems like there aren't many choices of drivers around...and the SR6438 have a very good response curve, why hasn't any company used it yet?

post #2196 of 3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xymordos View Post

After reading this I went to look at the graphs of many drivers that are commonly used for IEMs. It's interesting to see that the graphs all suck at high frequencies. They usually hit rock bottom at 10k. What drivers are actually good for different frequencies? I know the CI22955 and the HC23761 are usually used for bass, the ED29689, TWFK, FED30048, DTEC are usually used for mids, and the WBFK for highs? It seems like there aren't many choices of drivers around...and the SR6438 have a very good response curve, why hasn't any company used it yet?

 

 

The graphs provided by Knowles and others are not really very useful for our purposes though. They tend to measure with zero damping, and the results aren't very representative of what a CIEM maker can get out of the driver.

 

I've got a single driver IEM where the Knowles chart shows the driver dropping off at around 6kHz with practically zero output above that. Yet when I use them, I can clearly hear it producing frequency far higher than that. No, it doesn't soar to 20kHz, but it really doesn't do what the chart indicates either. 

post #2197 of 3830

I see, it is just that I found it odd that most graphs end at around 6-9k and you can obviously hear them reach to around 15-16. What drivers can actually reach 20k?

post #2198 of 3830

I know of these: SE-5 dual high frequency armatures (tweeter (called "high mids") + supertweeter; Knowles) and Hifiman RE0 and RE272 dynamic drivers.

 

I'll be grabbing RE0 and RE-ZERO soon just to experiment on custom reshells of those. Should be fun, instructive and perhaps great sound too.

Once I perfect those redesigns, I'll attempt RE272 again, unless these become complete winners.

(These are real cheap, $50 and $60. RE272 is $250.)


Edited by AstralStorm - 11/11/12 at 4:33pm
post #2199 of 3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xymordos View Post

I see, it is just that I found it odd that most graphs end at around 6-9k and you can obviously hear them reach to around 15-16. What drivers can actually reach 20k?

 

Just to help clarify: The drop-offs seen on iem frequency charts are part of an artifact of the measurement.

 

In other words, it's not an accurate measurement of the iem above a certain frequency.

 

That's not to say that a given iem has extension or not, just that the chart doesn't tell you much about it.

 

Also, most people don't hear above 16khz and there's very little music there. Different professional audio engineers who design custom iems I have spoken to personally call 12khz "air", not some frequency above that. It's interesting that they have had this view. The professional view is sometimes interesting to consider.

post #2200 of 3830
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xymordos View Post

I see, it is just that I found it odd that most graphs end at around 6-9k and you can obviously hear them reach to around 15-16. What drivers can actually reach 20k?

 

I vaguely remember reading that Knowles BAs were tested in an infinite baffle setup, which is a standard for the loudspeaker world (or maybe it was just their dynamic drivers).  

 

Can people hear 20K?  Some can, and above, and depending on what you believe, frequencies above 20K affect people and play a role in perception of the sound.  As far as the information, there are may harmonics well above 12K that have plenty of energy.  Here is a paper about harmonics and the energy, and if you look near the bottom of the page you can see that cymbals have 40% of their energy above 20K.

 

Personally, if a headphone (or speaker) rolls off too soon, the realism with well recorded music is not as good as something that extends the frequency spectrum.

post #2201 of 3830

I believe that too! I feel that the higher frequencies contribute to the sense of space around an instrument, which makes it more realistic. (Okay, not to the point of the 40k or even 120k response Sony claims to have).

 

Well concluding what you people said from above posts, the measurements from Knowles were not done for audio purposes, and the actual frequency response of each driver is quite different?

post #2202 of 3830

Yep, anyone not too old with non-damaged hearing should be able to hear 20k. I'm certified to hear 19.5kHz. (not more, since audiologist's hardware was bandlimited)

The main importance of highest frequencies is in harmonics, esp. organ, trumpets, percussion (cymbals, timpani, drums) and electronica square wave and triangle wave.

 

It seems that SE-5 might have a contender in Alclair RSM, 4-way. Supposedly it's tuned like Reference, but better extended up (due to separate midrange driver) and with bit more dynamics at the bottom due to different tuning of the woofers. I'll probably order it some time later.

 

Knowles measurements are made into 5 cc IEC standard coupler. This kind of coupler features a rolloff at the highest end due to increased volume of air - it's like super shallow fit - IEM sticking far out of the ear. Normally measurements use 2 cc couplers. There should be next to none variability between units, as every one is very high precision machined (as in single micrometer).

These measurements are of a single BA unit though - most BA IEMs have more than one. (TWFK and GQ are already two units, that's why they're so extended.)

BA aren't that great at reproducing air due to the very high stiffness of the armature itself, even the "type 3" dampened ones. (with reduced mass and holes)


Edited by AstralStorm - 11/12/12 at 3:40pm
post #2203 of 3830

average_joe, are you thinking of reviewing any Unique Melody products? I really wish you had a UM Miracle to review :(

post #2204 of 3830
Thread Starter 

I have been thinking of reviewing the Miracle for a while, but if/when it happens is still TBD.  I do have the PP6 coming in the near future ;)

post #2205 of 3830

I dunno about you guys but I am still really wanting an AverageJoe vs Earsonics EM6 review.  So few reviews on that IEM but they are all glowing, would certainly like the maestro of customs to conduct a reviewbiggrin.gif

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