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Multi-Custom In-Ear Monitor Review, Resource, Mfg List & Discussion (Check first post for review links & information) - Page 143

post #2131 of 4815
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

I think they're sticking with the original model numbers and just incorporating the 'new technology' into newly-built models.

Here's the YouTube video announcement, and here's a video of Jerry doing his elevator pitch.

 

That video doesn't tell me anything and for all I know is just a new way to market the product.  Is there a press release, a post by Jude, or anything else I might have missed?  Patent pending doesn't mean much IMO unless there is a filing number for a provisional or full (design or utility) patent.

 

Edit: Is the video on the JHA official YouTube channel?


Edited by average_joe - 10/16/12 at 11:47pm
post #2132 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by average_joe View Post

 

That video doesn't tell me anything and for all I know is just a new way to market the product.  Is there a press release, a post by Jude, or anything else I might have missed?  Patent pending doesn't mean much IMO unless there is a filing number for a provisional or full (design or utility) patent.

 

Edit: Is the video on the JHA official YouTube channel?

 

I haven't seen anything by Jude; someone listened to the demo JH16 at RMAF but didn't say anything substantial.

 

It could very well be just a gimmick, but I don't know. Harvey seems very adamant abut having taken 15 years to be able to do this. Either he's practiced his spiel very well, or he really is convinced that whatever he did or is doing is helping.

 

The announcement video doesn't look like it's from JH's official channel, but they did link to it on their Facebook page.

 

ADDENDUM: http://jhaudioblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/introducing-freqphase/


Edited by tomscy2000 - 10/17/12 at 11:27am
post #2133 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

 

There are certain IEC recommended ear couplers - that'd make for at least comparable results if identically compensated. Very easy construction too. Not that great for very high frequencies. (Also, I have acquired HEAD ID decoder ring too.)

 

The static and dynamic behavior can be analyzed separately - it's the static part that causes coloration.

Inordinate amount of high frequency ringing can sound pretty bad without any coloration present though (even if equalized, e.g. GR07 sibilant 6 kHz ringing; RE272 had 4k ringing giving it bell-like "electric" sound).

Similarly "weird" decays can be caught, e.g. "slowness", reverberated ranges, "bass bleed" - these don't apply to BAs usually.

Also CSDs cannot be really made for low frequencies, as that'd require super low noise very long impulse response measurement.

Sometimes resonant peaks can be noted directly in the frequency response - but I'd be careful about it in BA IEMs.

 

THD/frequency charts work relatively well for detecting audible bass/mids distortion, but seem to not be too predictive of higher frequency behavior. (grain or warmth depending on the order.)

 

The reason why in case of BAs CSDs likely don't matter is that they just don't ring due to the tiny size of the driver moving tiny volume of air and relatively large amounts of mechanical and/or magnetic dampening applied. At least not the newer wideband models, or even older when shelved by an n-way crossfeed below or above resonance.

And if there is resonance, it's in multiple tiny peaks it seems, much less obtrusive than long ones of large magnitude.

Undampened BA models probably have one ringing spike, in 3-5kHz range? (I've heard 2 with this feature)

Couplers are one thing another thing is measurement's conditions which rarely are the same and since manufacturers don't provide that info you simply can't take it for granted.

 

Well to sustain my statement I'll just say that GR07 doesn't sound sibiliant to me at all. It all depends on how your brain process the sound and how your ear canals are shaped.

 

I'll also disagree about the statement that BA don't ring. It's just physically impossible plus it's clearly audible in many IEMs. Spikes depend on the construction of the driver (as a whole). There are many armatures with 5-6 spikes across the spectrum and some without one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Originally yes. However, since then there are some pretty wideband balanced armatures - and to reduce distortion you can just combine more of them, assuming they're well matched. (THD is increased though.) Some crossovers and BA transducers have lots of phase shift, others not as much. May cause slight comb filtering, but usually not audible due to narrow band of effect. (unlike the following test) Phase shift is even harder to hear.

This is not like in speakers, where there can be weird interference patterns off-axis due to differing speaker polarity compounding the effect.

Usually multi-way IEMs have phase shift in the range where the ear is more sensitive, but it still doesn't matter - this is little.

 

Anyway, phase shift is easy to correct with an all-pass filter (anticausal if there's no other way), but fitting one into an IEM might be tricky - it's hard enough to fit crossovers, plus it will increase general impedance and might worsen THD if certain low quality capacitors are used. (but it'd be silly to do so regardless of application)

The main important part is to match any crossfeed and filter resistors very well to limit inter-channel phase shift, which does affect stereo imaging. Digital filters don't have this kind of problem.

 

Here's a sample phase chart (second from top on the left, pink curve) of:

- a single BA IEM (Knowles ED, pretty common for others too): http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MEEA161P.pdf

- 2-way BA IEM: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/JaysqJAY.pdf

- 2-way BA IEM with dual tweeters: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSE535.pdf

- 3-way BA IEM with dual bass armatures: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/LogitechUE900.pdf

 

Here's some "lots of phase shift" test. It's barely audible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ#t=2864s

Have a crossover phase shift blind test too. Good luck with this one: http://mark.hayenga.com/audio/phase_shift/

And analysis by prof. Linkwitz: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/x-phs-dist.htm

 

--

A single dynamic driver is pretty hard to tune and will lag behind balanced armatures in higher frequency reproduction. (mostly either will get resonant or will be slow decay)

What they do best is moving lots of air - such as bass and subbass. They can also be more wideband, but then the driver will likely be resonant.

The problematic part is that dynamic drivers depend mostly on mechanical and acoustic dampening, which is by nature nonlinear.

So no, they cannot do it better than proper set of armatures with the above exception.

 

Electrostatic IEMs could perhaps do that, but the only I know of is Stax SA-003 (or the combo set with the amp, SRS-005S). It's pretty large, expensive, requires an expensive special amplifier (all electrostats do) and is open back. Also is inverse phase, which you might want to correct by a trivial filter. The amps are not portable either. (good luck trying to run 580V bias from anything portable)

 

Similarly orthodynamic IEMs, the only one I know of is Yamaha YH-5M, quite unavailable anywhere? Also huge.

The phase shift isn't something bad. It takes golden ear to distinguish between sound in phase and in reversed phase.

 

In dual driver combined from two identical BA say Sonion 3300 (2x 3100) THD is lower than in single 3100.

 

Armature depends on mechanical and acoustic dampening as well, which of course isn't bad thing per se.

post #2134 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by piotrus-g View Post

Couplers are one thing another thing is measurement's conditions which rarely are the same and since manufacturers don't provide that info you simply can't take it for granted.

 

Well to sustain my statement I'll just say that GR07 doesn't sound sibiliant to me at all. It all depends on how your brain process the sound and how your ear canals are shaped.

 

I'll also disagree about the statement that BA don't ring. It's just physically impossible plus it's clearly audible in many IEMs. Spikes depend on the construction of the driver (as a whole). There are many armatures with 5-6 spikes across the spectrum and some without one.

Nah, it doesn't depend on ear canal shape at all - the driver has audible resonance there and a long one too. Equalization can reduce it somewhat by trimming the excess fundamental, but not really remove it. What you'd have to do is subtract the signal after applying short delay and volume drop.

 

I have seen some CSDs of GR07 somewhere around, have to find them again. They exhibit definite long 6 kHz ringing. It does sound pretty bad (definitely distinguishable) in Polish or most other slavic languages.

 

I've actually made a mistake by saying "non-resonant". I've checked the data and there are resonance examples in both BA and dynamic IEMs (heck, custom ones too).

Albeit, most IEMs just do not ring - the decays are proportional or nearly proportional to the frequency response.

GoldenEars has some nice CSDs, take a peek.

post #2135 of 4815
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

I haven't seen anything by Jude; someone listened to the demo JH16 at RMAF but didn't say anything substantial.

 

It could very well be just a gimmick, but I don't know. Harvey seems very adamant abut having taken 15 years to be able to do this. Either he's practiced his spiel very well, or he really is convinced that whatever he did or is doing is helping.

 

The announcement video doesn't look like it's from JH's official channel, but they did link to it on their Facebook page.

 

ADDENDUM: http://jhaudioblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/introducing-freqphase/

 

And here is a video from can jam.  Looking at phase charts in that video, I haven't seen any CIEM with that phase performance, but the JH product in that chart looks close to a dynamic driver chart from an innerfidelity.com chart.  

 

We will have to wait for someone with the JH13 or JH16 to hear the new version...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Nah, it doesn't depend on ear canal shape at all - the driver has audible resonance there and a long one too. Equalization can reduce it somewhat by trimming the excess fundamental, but not really remove it. What you'd have to do is subtract the signal after applying short delay and volume drop.

 

I have seen some CSDs of GR07 somewhere around, have to find them again. They exhibit definite long 6 kHz ringing. It does sound pretty bad (definitely distinguishable) in Polish or most other slavic languages.

 

I've actually made a mistake by saying "non-resonant". I've checked the data and there are resonance examples in both BA and dynamic IEMs (heck, custom ones too).

Albeit, most IEMs just do not ring - the decays are proportional or nearly proportional to the frequency response.

GoldenEars has some nice CSDs, take a peek.

 

I remember seeing some in-ear charts showing change in treble response depending on insertion depth for universal IEMs, but can't recall the site at the moment (and don't have time to search).  This proves ear canal length matters (length compared with the wavelength of the frequencies), which is essentially a change in the ear canal length.  Therefore it seems reasonable to me that ear canal shape (length) variation from person to person and the depth an IEM/CIEM can be inserted will affect the sound, at least somewhat.

post #2136 of 4815

Of course it will - but not driver ringing. That's why deeper insertion helps with GR07: the fundamental peak is shifted upwards, but the driver resonance remains the same.

Alernatively, using foam drops it downwards some.


Edited by AstralStorm - 10/18/12 at 11:18pm
post #2137 of 4815

In your list of Custom IEMs listed below (not your reviewed CIEMs), do all of them need an amp for them to sound good? If so, which CIEMs don't require an amp to sound really good? I don't have the money for an amp, and I can't even afford most of the Customs on this list. (~$350 budget)

 

Which CIEMs don't need an amp to sound good? Thanks!

 

(PS I'm coming from an IE80 and a Sansa Clip+)


Edited by RobotsEatCookie - 10/19/12 at 5:37pm
post #2138 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotsEatCookie View Post

Which CIEMs don't need an amp to sound good? Thanks!

 

I'm enjoying my 4.A on my Clip Zip, no problem.

post #2139 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotsEatCookie View Post

In your list of Custom IEMs listed below (not your reviewed CIEMs), do all of them need an amp for them to sound good? If so, which CIEMs don't require an amp to sound really good? I don't have the money for an amp, and I can't even afford most of the Customs on this list. (~$350 budget)

 

Which CIEMs don't need an amp to sound good? Thanks!

 

(PS I'm coming from an IE80 and a Sansa Clip+)


Seen the cosmicears thread with regards to prices?  Granted they don't include impressions, postage etc but still damn cheap.

 

Cheers

post #2140 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcotton View Post

Seen the cosmicears thread with regards to prices?  Granted they don't include impressions, postage etc but still damn cheap.

 

Indeed, cheapest there is!

post #2141 of 4815

Spiral Ear SE-5 only need a low impedance output, not really an amp. Many DAPs have those. (Sansa Clip family, my old iRivier T20, Creative Zen, etc.)

 

--

Here's a fun question. I've been looking through the Golden Ears charts, Rooth LS8 is pretty close!

(I've used AKG K3003 to establish a baseline - these sounded almost identically in high boost mode to Brainwavz B2, which I'm very familiar with and have a good correction curve.)

Here's the comparison - reference is 500 Hz (marked yellow), LS8 is red, JH16 is cyan/green and corrected Brainwavz B2 is violet.

As you can see, JH16 is pretty close. Is there anything closer?

 

(Sorry about general funkiness of this graph - bitmaps are pretty hard to handle.)

 

Other stuff I've heard and they have measured:

Westone W4 (upper mids are cut some, slightly darkish highs around 7k): http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Earphones&document_srl=12511

UE Super.fi 4 (long time ago, fit was killing me, before the cable died; bit aggressive around 5k, lowpassed): http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Earphones&document_srl=3034

 

Of the above, Super.fi 4 were the closest match, with minor 7k boost and highest end cut.

 

--

And here's an extra treat, approximate response of my SE-5 on top of Golden Ears chart. Now you can know what I mean by shelved treble and easy to equalize.


Edited by AstralStorm - 10/20/12 at 3:07am
post #2142 of 4815

For my amp question, thanks!

 

However, I need help choosing a CIEM based on these categories-

 

-Build Quality: I want these in ears to last as long as possible, forever maybe, as I won’t be changing IEMs for a long time. I take good care of my headphones, but I will use them very often.

 

-Microphonics: From my experience, I never found microphonics a problem when listening to music, but from what I’ve read, microphonics appear to be a problem on IEMs. I play with headphone cables often, tangle them, wrap them, and untangle them when they get tangled because they’re a mess.

 

-Noise Isolation: I don't need too much isolation; just average (like 3/5 on a scale of 1-5). It’s nice to filter out background noise, but it poses a safety threat, so I prefer average isolation.

 

-Comfort: I will be wearing my headphones for many hours at a time, and can listen to 200+ songs without removing them. Sometimes, I sleep with my headphones on. I want a non-fatiguing sound, and I want to feel as if the headphones weren’t there or as they were cushioning my ear.

 

-Song Genres: I listen to all genres. However I listent to classical, techno, electronic, jazz, rap/hip-hop/pop, rock (occasionally), and popular songs most. Examples include Approaching Nirvana, Eminem, John Coltrane, sometimes Miles Davis, Linkin Park, and many Billboard 100 songs. It will also be used for to watch videos/movies, conferencing/calling, and video games.

 

-Sound Signature: I like my sound to have resolution and seem 3D. Likewise, I value tonal accuracy, clarity, coherence and detail. Words to describe my preferred sound are rich, warm, organic and natural, realistic, transparent, and bright. Punchy bass and treble is important.

 

-Other Important Information: The source of my audio is usually my Sandisk Sansa Clip+, although at other times it will be my Asus N53SV-XV1 PC, and other times my Android phone (rarely an iPod or iPhone). Keep in mind that I will not be using an amplifier of any kind.

 

If someone could help me, that would be great.  Really looking forward to feedback or replies! Thanks.


Edited by RobotsEatCookie - 10/20/12 at 8:41am
post #2143 of 4815
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotsEatCookie View Post

For my amp question, thanks!

 

However, I need help choosing a CIEM based on these categories-

 

-Build Quality: I want these in ears to last as long as possible, forever maybe, as I won’t be changing IEMs for a long time. I take good care of my headphones, but I will use them very often. In general, CIEMs have very good build quality.  The concern is the drivers and moisture which can clog filters and cause issues with the BAs themselves.  Depending on how often you use them, you should use a hearing aid dryer and clean ear wax from the sound tubes.  Of course, any IEM will have the same issues.  Dynamic drivers are less prone to these issues, but my IE8 had degredation due to wear.

 

-Microphonics: From my experience, I never found microphonics a problem when listening to music, but from what I’ve read, microphonics appear to be a problem on IEMs. I play with headphone cables often, tangle them, wrap them, and untangle them when they get tangled because they’re a mess. This is primarily cable dependent, and with an over-the-ear fit, it generally isn't an issue.  The stock twisted Westone style cable is very good from this perspective.

 

-Noise Isolation: I don't need too much isolation; just average (like 3/5 on a scale of 1-5). It’s nice to filter out background noise, but it poses a safety threat, so I prefer average isolation. Hybrid or dynamic driver CIEMs have less isolation than BA, although a shorter canal length will give less isolation, but the sound can change and there are more chances for fit issues. 

 

-Comfort: I will be wearing my headphones for many hours at a time, and can listen to 200+ songs without removing them. Sometimes, I sleep with my headphones on. I want a non-fatiguing sound, and I want to feel as if the headphones weren’t there or as they were cushioning my ear.

 

-Song Genres: I listen to all genres. However I listent to classical, techno, electronic, jazz, rap/hip-hop/pop, rock (occasionally), and popular songs most. Examples include Approaching Nirvana, Eminem, John Coltrane, sometimes Miles Davis, Linkin Park, and many Billboard 100 songs. It will also be used for to watch videos/movies, conferencing/calling, and video games.  The more expensive CIEMs tend to have better techncial capabilities/performance and will do better with a wider range of genres and other audio.

 

-Sound Signature: I like my sound to have resolution and seem 3D. Likewise, I value tonal accuracy, clarity, coherence and detail. Words to describe my preferred sound are rich, warm, organic and natural, realistic, transparent, and bright. Punchy bass and treble is important. Check out CIEMs such as the SE 5-way, Heir Audio 8.A, Earsonics EM6 and EM4.  If you can provide more information as to the headphones/IEMs you like, that can help narrow down the choices.

 

-Other Important Information: The source of my audio is usually my Sandisk Sansa Clip+, although at other times it will be my Asus N53SV-XV1 PC, and other times my Android phone (rarely an iPod or iPhone). Keep in mind that I will not be using an amplifier of any kind.  Everything improves to an extent when driven properly, so take that in mind.  High end CIEMs have a lot of capability and when driving them with lower end sources they won't perform at their best.

 

If someone could help me, that would be great.  Really looking forward to feedback or replies! Thanks.

post #2144 of 4815
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobotsEatCookie View Post
-Comfort: I will be wearing my headphones for many hours at a time, and can listen to 200+ songs without removing them. Sometimes, I sleep with my headphones on. I want a non-fatiguing sound, and I want to feel as if the headphones weren’t there or as they were cushioning my ear.

 

 

ok i can do that one then ^_^

even with a perfect fit, you will sweat and after some hours it can be disturbing. for real long time of use, i believe some super small universals with foam tips would do better i ve been using some for like 13hours in a row sometimes, and could use them again the next day.

i can put my hear on the pillow with Qjays, with my er4 it would prolly be death by probing :)  , with all my sonys i just can't feel comfortable. i did it with customs and broke 2cables, the plastic part hiding the soldering with the pins. and i feel lucky i didn't break the pins inside the ciem.

for non fatigue sound, i would go for flat stuff or a little bump in the mids, but i really hurt fast with anything V shaped even at low volume.

post #2145 of 4815

Perhaps the half shell custom will do best in that case, such as Fabs. The small size should help with sweating too.

These likely aren't bright enough.

 

Starkey SA-12 could be a hit too with its very tiny size, but the sound might be too bright or bright in the wrong place - but it might work for you. (it's a TWFK after all)

If you know AKG K3003, Fischer Audio DBA-02, Brainwavz B2 or VSonic GR01, you should have some idea how it sounds, but the tuning is probably slightly different.

For me, this sounds bit "in the face" or "hand cupped by the ear" and flat due to the 5k boost, but otherwise is slightly warm and very nice analytic presentation.

 

SE-5 (but this might be an artifact of my pair), EM4, EM6 and 8.A etc. are likely too dark if you want something energetic in the highs. SE-5 and probably 8.A provide added energy and punch by their bass instead. Not sure if EM4 or EM6 can do the same.

I'd describe the SE-5 sound as a very dampened room or a large hall - similar to LCD-2. It still has some bite to it, but it feels "cozy" and not analytical at all. Kind of an anti-presence feel or a smooth rolloff.

 

--

And here's a question: I really need a DIY impression kit. Care to recommend a good one available separately, in EU?

 

US is acceptable with normal shipping prices (not $40).

--

It has come to pass that my SE-5 only reach the second bend and not go past it. (thanks for the x-ray check for an unrelated reason) I need to make some crazy deep impressions - by that I mean at least 6mm longer. Funnily enough, super deep inserted Comply P Slim (with Brainwavz B2) just reach into it. Not as comfortable while inserting that deep. (definitely pushes against some bone) This nets nearly optimal frequency response (sans the notable bass boost, super high end rolloff and some 3 dB 5k boost) and vastly improved soundstaging.

 

So... We Need To Go Deeper!


Edited by AstralStorm - 10/22/12 at 12:20pm
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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Multi-Custom In-Ear Monitor Review, Resource, Mfg List & Discussion (Check first post for review links & information)