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Multi-Custom In-Ear Monitor Review, Resource, Mfg List & Discussion (Check first post for review... - Page 133

post #1981 of 4120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post

 

I haven't clogged my 4.A, I clean it semi-regularly, but its tubes will never be as clean as on the day I received it. For that reason, I've sometimes wondered if a universal with custom silicone tips couldn't be the best of both worlds: comfortable, easy to clean, with good isolation. A problem I can see (and did see, on pictures) is that it can make the IEM protrude quite a lot more than seems strictly necessary.

 

Of course, some universals fit so well, custom tips may not be needed at all. I tried many (many many many) tips with the Etymotics models, never to my satisfaction, until very recently, when I tried the Atrio's tri-flange on it. It was perfect. Better than on the Atrios themselves, actually, because the suction of the tips can create a vacuum seal that provides great isolation but prevents the Atrios's dynamic driver from moving (i.e. no sound at all), while this problem doesn't occur with the HF-5 and ER-4 models.

 

I have custom tips for a universal and they don't change too much for me.  Actually, they improve the sound in certain aspects and make it worse in others.  Using a hearing aid dryer is really the best way to protect your investment; they are heavily used in the hearing aid industry for a reason!  And nice find on the tips for the Ety's.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinsiang View Post

Joe can you give a view as you have the nt-6, nt-6 pro and ls8 with multiple cables such as the magnus and twag2.
Thanks
 
I do have pairing with the LS8 in many of my cable reviews, but it seems like it doesn't improve much if at all with aftermarket cables.  It seems the LS8 was optimized with the stock cable, and performs well with it.  I am way behind on my reviews and need to finish the NT-6 pro review as well as the Magnus cable review.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalboy View Post


Is it because of the dynamic driver and the large soundtube?
I tried another silver Cable and it made it much worse. Way to bright and piercing
Treble. But it sounded very good with my es5.
Typing on the phone is difficult in this site.

 

Yes, it has to do with the size of the sound tubes in BAs, but the filters also are a significant failure point.  Dynamic drivers just appear to be more robust unless you regularly care for the BA in a high humidity environment.  My SA-12 failure was probably in part due to lack of using my hearing aid dryer for some time since I just left it in my gym bag.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcotton View Post

 

 So close but yet still so far.  I'm now convinced that it's the part where it hooks under the flap at the top of the ear that is now the problem.  Tried these on and off at work today for longer periods and always got uncomfortable.  However my ear canal feels absolutely fine in comparison.  In the past it always felt sore after about half an hour.  Just feels like it really digs in there.  I know the idea is for it to "lock" under the skin but it feels like it just needs reducing a bit.  Been in touch with Lee so will see.  Right ear feels fine as long as I get the insertion  correct (ooer!).  When it was sealed properly I finally began to get a good idea of the sound.  How long would you say these need to be considered run in?  So far all things considered I think I'm on about 5-6 hours in total.

 

Cheers

 

That stinks, but at least you are getting closer.  I hope once you get it right everything fall into place and you can just enjoy your music!  As far as run in, I honestly can't recall exactly, and 5-6 hours could do it, or it may take 100, which is my typical burn in time.  You can just let it play music 24-7 for a week or so and that should be plenty.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Hello,

Do you happen to know of a CIEM that's brighter than SE-5 in the highest end? (>4.5k)

I'm talking around 6 dB/oct brighter (meaning notably), but not as bright as Brainwavz B2 / Fisher Audio DBA-02.

 

Tiny bit lighter midbass and more forward 1-2k mids as well if possible. General sound quality preferably on par (will be hard to match in bass and subbass).

 

If it helps, here's the graphical representation:

 

The extreme subbass and super highs (>17k) are less important. The high dip is centered on 14 kHz.

Similarly sounding headphones are also acceptable if you happen know any.

 

The ACS T1 Live! comes to mind, and I do compare the two in the T1 Live! review.

post #1982 of 4120

Hi Joe! Thanks for the help. Anxious to to see the NT-6 Pro review this week!!! Now the dilemma is LS8+ or NT-6Pro. Argh!!! it 's so difficult as i don't want to get the wrong one as i can't test them.

 

Rdgs,

Siang

post #1983 of 4120

The ACS T1 Live review confuses me in comparison with SE-5. More forward, yet laid back midrange? Would that mean louder in 3-4k range but quieter in 1-2k range? This would be the opposite of what I want. SE-5 is slightly laid back in center midrange, 3-4k range is nigh perfect.

Darker high end than SE-5 is a big no.

 

From what I could read, Starkey SA-43, Dream Earz aud-5X or Fabs (unless their high midrange is the same as DBA-02/B2) could be that right pick...

 

Universals fitting the bill are also welcome, as long as they're <=4.5mm nozzle. Narrowest part of both ear canal internals is 6 mm (bend to bend and at the first bend) while widest is 10 mm (after the second bend) - and the tip has to fit too. Comply P Slim has just the right dimensions and compressibility for deep fit. (10 mm non-tapering foam would probably work too, but might be trickier to insert)

Entry is even more eliptical, 12mm/6mm; which is why shallow fit is usually unstable in my ears or gets partially occluded by the bend resulting in high end loss.

 

Soundstaging and detailing-wise, SE-5 is noticeably more precise than B2, both equalized - B2 sounds a tiny bit noisy/dirty with less full subbass in comparison. However, SE-5 has more left/right imbalance in frequency spectrum which sometimes causes weird imaging, but depth and height are rendered more naturally and generally better. Extension-wise, both are similar, SE-5 being more extended in subbass, while B2 is more extended in the highs. (SE-5/B2: 16/20Hz and 17k/17.5kHz) Yes, I know I'm comparing devices having 10x price spread.

 

I suppose AKG K3003 is very close in sound to B2 with the High Boost (none) filter, while Reference filter would be slightly too mid forward and too laid back in the highest registers. I haven't heard these though, it's hard to get an audition at the highest end of the price range.

 

Here are the latest comparison curves of how I hear B2 and SE-5. (Referenced to 500 Hz)

B2 is reduced from flat @ 20 Hz, because any more boost introduces lots of distortion. (would need about extra 3 dB)

 

Brainwavz B2 (w/ Comply P Slim):

 

Spiral Ear SE-5:


Edited by AstralStorm - 9/12/12 at 12:39am
post #1984 of 4120

got the dx100 today:) Sounds pretty good. biggest difference is the more laid back sound and the depth of the soundstage compared to 801. I was more surprised with JH16 than 5 way on dx100 (1.1.7). Dx100 really drives JH16 well with great detail from top to bottom. Super smoothness too. I thought it would be sounding analytical with it, but it's not at all. The only problem is it's sometimes too powerful so the bass quantity is a bit too much though it's extremely well controlled: ) For some songs, I need to eq down the sub bass to make it sound just right. I find JH16 has even more liquidity than 5 way on dx100. But with DX100 I truly see the technical ability of 5 way which I wasn't fully aware on 801. The resolution of mids of 5 way easily beat JH16 on dx100. Also the ultra high is so (probably too) well extended. I even have to eq down 16k to make it sound less clear, otherwise I will be tiring after listening to such resolving high for a long time.

 

so Astralstorm, u might want to try out dx100 :) it seems to fit your request of a little bit more analytical sounding. The high is really something special that I don't hear even with desktop set up. Very laid back and spacious presentation.  I would never call 5 way dark at all with this DAP. (if 1.1.7 is not bright enough for u, u have 1.2.3) It's strange that source can change this much on the sound. I agree with joe saying that 5 way's ability raises with the quality of higher end DAPs. The highs of 5 way on dx100 is probably something you will never find in any other DAPs. :p


Edited by tupac0306 - 9/12/12 at 7:25am
post #1985 of 4120

Yes, I have heard the iBasso DX100 briefly in the store. It's a very good DAP (software notwithstanding apparently), but it's as linear as my setup, which means the same correction as for Audiotrak Prodigy Cube above. It's the HM-801 which I consider completely broken with major lowpass and high output impedance.

(Prodigy Cube uses OPA2227 gain stage w/ 3x JRC2860 output stage. Not that much gain available, only 2.4x, so it won't drive monsters like Beyer DT880. There's 10 Ohm extra impedance on one output due to some protection circuit, the other output is near 0 Ohm. Those 10 Ohms cause noticeable general lowpass, estimated 6 dB.)

 

For comparison, FiiO E17 causes some upper midrange boost with unevenness in higher end. It clearly has problems driving SE-5. E7 doesn't have this problem, but loses out on bass control, noise and general precision.

 

Anyway, the above frequency response might be the result of the fit - my SE-5 have relatively short ear canal parts (~16mm), look shorter than ones shown in the review. I'd have to make impressions at another audiologist. They do reach some 4 mm past the second bend though. The fit is generally very comfortable.

My SE-5 as it is is far too laid back highs, similar to GR07 actually but less peaky, so sounding ever so slightly darker. RE272 was far more competent in the upper highs, but had a similar problem as Brainwavz B2, less pronounced. Oh, and far worse bass response than either. So, I'm spoiled for brighter highs.

 

Indeed, SE-5 sounds as dark as Audeze LCD-2, but the signature is like the offspring of GR07 lows and mids with LCD-2 highs.

Beyerdynamic DT1350 has the response that's closer in terms of bright/dark balance and resulting detailing to the target equalization - obviously far less even and with some upper resonances, also is 9 dB less efficient.

 

The chart for those follows: (Referenced to 500 Hz)

 

The result is closer to Tesla T1 with less annoying highs resonance and far better bass control and response. It's "dirtier" in the high end/mids and leaner than SE-5 (similar to Brainwavz B2), cleaner and similar in weight in bass/low midrange.

 

Other lesser quality headphones that have similar tuning to the end result are Shure SRH 750 and 840 and Sennheiser Amperior (almost perfectly)/HD-25, 201, 202 and somewhat 280 Pro. All of these are badly bandlimited in subbass (except Amperior/HD-25) and especially extreme highs. Audeo PFE 121 with Green filter have pretty close tuning as well, bit more laid back central midrange and less sparkle than I'd like, shares the same problem of highest end rolloff. Jays q-Jays are even closer in terms of tuning, but quite a bit lower sound quality.

Shure SE535 would be close if it had more sparkle and high end extension.

 

Generally I love the sound quality and note thickness of SE-5, but not its tuning.


Edited by AstralStorm - 9/12/12 at 9:31am
post #1986 of 4120

Short version:

 

The above pinpoints Starkey SA-43, Earsonics EM4, Dream Earz aud-5X, Kozee Infinity X3 and Fabs.

Which one of these has the note thickness, soundstaging and timbre closest to SE-5 while having more sparkle and being a tiny bit more forward in central mids?

(but not in the upper mids!)


Edited by AstralStorm - 9/12/12 at 9:44am
post #1987 of 4120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tupac0306 View Post

got the dx100 today:) Sounds pretty good. biggest difference is the more laid back sound and the depth of the soundstage compared to 801. I was more surprised with JH16 than 5 way on dx100 (1.1.7). Dx100 really drives JH16 well with great detail from top to bottom. Super smoothness too. I thought it would be sounding analytical with it, but it's not at all. The only problem is it's sometimes too powerful so the bass quantity is a bit too much though it's extremely well controlled: ) For some songs, I need to eq down the sub bass to make it sound just right. I find JH16 has even more liquidity than 5 way on dx100. But with DX100 I truly see the technical ability of 5 way which I wasn't fully aware on 801. The resolution of mids of 5 way easily beat JH16 on dx100. Also the ultra high is so (probably too) well extended. I even have to eq down 16k to make it sound less clear, otherwise I will be tiring after listening to such resolving high for a long time.

 

so Astralstorm, u might want to try out dx100 :) it seems to fit your request of a little bit more analytical sounding. The high is really something special that I don't hear even with desktop set up. Very laid back and spacious presentation.  I would never call 5 way dark at all with this DAP. (if 1.1.7 is not bright enough for u, u have 1.2.3) It's strange that source can change this much on the sound. I agree with joe saying that 5 way's ability raises with the quality of higher end DAPs. The highs of 5 way on dx100 is probably something you will never find in any other DAPs. :p

 

I agree that the DX100 is an exceptional DAP and with the 1.1.7 firmware has surpassed the 801 by a decent amount in detail and clarity.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Yes, I have heard the iBasso DX100 briefly in the store. It's a very good DAP (software notwithstanding apparently), but it's as linear as my setup, which means the same correction as for Audiotrak Prodigy Cube above. It's the HM-801 which I consider completely broken with major lowpass and high output impedance.

(Prodigy Cube uses OPA2227 gain stage w/ 3x JRC2860 output stage. Not that much gain available, only 2.4x, so it won't drive monsters like Beyer DT880. There's 10 Ohm extra impedance on one output due to some protection circuit, the other output is near 0 Ohm. Those 10 Ohms cause noticeable general lowpass, estimated 6 dB.)

 

For comparison, FiiO E17 causes some upper midrange boost with unevenness in higher end. It clearly has problems driving SE-5. E7 doesn't have this problem, but loses out on bass control, noise and general precision.

 

Anyway, the above frequency response might be the result of the fit - my SE-5 have relatively short ear canal parts (~16mm), look shorter than ones shown in the review. I'd have to make impressions at another audiologist. They do reach some 4 mm past the second bend though. The fit is generally very comfortable.

My SE-5 as it is is far too laid back highs, similar to GR07 actually but less peaky, so sounding ever so slightly darker. RE272 was far more competent in the upper highs, but had a similar problem as Brainwavz B2, less pronounced. Oh, and far worse bass response than either. So, I'm spoiled for brighter highs.

 

Indeed, SE-5 sounds as dark as Audeze LCD-2, but the signature is like the offspring of GR07 lows and mids with LCD-2 highs.

Beyerdynamic DT1350 has the response that's closer in terms of bright/dark balance and resulting detailing to the target equalization - obviously far less even and with some upper resonances, also is 9 dB less efficient.

 

The chart for those follows: (Referenced to 500 Hz)

 

The result is closer to Tesla T1 with less annoying highs resonance and far better bass control and response. It's "dirtier" in the high end/mids and leaner than SE-5 (similar to Brainwavz B2), cleaner and similar in weight in bass/low midrange.

 

Other lesser quality headphones that have similar tuning to the end result are Shure SRH 750 and 840 and Sennheiser Amperior (almost perfectly)/HD-25, 201, 202 and somewhat 280 Pro. All of these are badly bandlimited in subbass (except Amperior/HD-25) and especially extreme highs. Audeo PFE 121 with Green filter have pretty close tuning as well, bit more laid back central midrange and less sparkle than I'd like, shares the same problem of highest end rolloff. Jays q-Jays are even closer in terms of tuning, but quite a bit lower sound quality.

Shure SE535 would be close if it had more sparkle and high end extension.

 

Generally I love the sound quality and note thickness of SE-5, but not its tuning.

 

Seems like it may be canal length related.  Here is my comparison of my original 5-way (short canals) with my 2nd 5-way (longer canals):

 

5-way original vs. new 5-way: The first thing I noticed with the fit of the new 5-way was the perfect and much deeper fit that gave me quite a bit more isolation.  Upon initial comparison, I was a little surprised by some of the differences between the two, especially the presentation differences.  From my discussions with Grzegorz, I expected certain things to be better such as the deep bass and treble, but the additional upper midrange emphasis and more mid-forward/up-front presentation was a surprise.  Along with the brighter, more mid-forward presentation, the extremely good clarity improved with the new 5-way with a sharper focus.  Resolution levels are the same between the two, but due to the more forward presentation and more upper midrange focus, details are easier to hear with the new 5-way.  One of the bigger differences between the two is the treble, as the new 5-way treble is far superior in linearity and smoothness, with a sweet presentation that is much more forgiving of poorly mastered tracks.  While the original 5-way has great transparency, the new 5-way often bested the original.

 

Soundstage size of the original is sometimes apparently larger, and even quite a bit depending on the track and source combo, but the new 5-way changes size quite a bit and can actually sound slightly larger than original 5-way, and the presentation is more filled out (more on that below in the presentation section).  The new 5-way has an effortlessness to it in comparison with the original as well as better transparency and the mid-forward presentation makes the new 5-way more immersive, at least most of the time depending on the track.  The real issue with these differences is that I will have to redo all of my A/B comparisons to update them with the new 5-way to make sure they are right.  And I thought this was going to be an easy review.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

Short version:

 

The above pinpoints Starkey SA-43, Earsonics EM4, Dream Earz aud-5X, Kozee Infinity X3 and Fabs.

Which one of these has the note thickness, soundstaging and timbre closest to SE-5 while having more sparkle and being a tiny bit more forward in central mids?

(but not in the upper mids!)

 

SA-43: not as bright or detailed, but similar note thickness and soundstaging, however more laid back.

EM4: bass is much more enhanced, mids are more forward, and the presentation isn't nearly as coherent

aud-5X: thicker notes reduce the clarity and tonally it is quite different due to this

X3: Not close in so many ways

Fabs: while the midrange is similar, the bass and treble are way off.  However, Claus has continued to tweak the product and it might be much better now.

 

I still think the T1 is the closest overall in tone, but the soundstage size is smaller and the mids are more forward.  There is more upper midrange but less treble emphasis and extension (I know you said you wanted more treble).  The NT-6 fits in a way, but the note presentation is very different.  The To Go! 334 is somewhat close to what you are describing.  The LS8+ may also fit, but I only had the demo for a short period so I can't say for sure, and the notes aren't quite as organic even though they are extremely liquid.

 

Also of note, if your 5-way sounds like my original, these comparisons will be off.

post #1988 of 4120

Probably it does sound like your original considering that it sounds very much like Audeze LCD-2; or like GR07 with extra presence cut.

Neither of those is sparkly enough for my taste.

 

Ehh, probably another trip to the audiologist is in order, a better one this time or perhaps directly to Poznań to visit the audiologist recommended by Grzegorz. Or perhaps do it right with a DIY kit. Lots of bother and another month or so of wait.

 

Now, suppose my SE-5 sound like your original, could you please draw comparisons again?

 

Looking at the To Go! 334 graphs vs Etymotic ER4PT, it's not that - it will have a 1-2kHz cut, some 3kHz boost and major 4-6kHz boost. Not entirely sure about 8k-10k range, but looks like it will be sparkly enough. (Etys themselves have a huge 3k-6k boost and 8-10k cut to my ears. Obviously really inferior bass.)

 

Rooth LS8 will have even more of 3-6k boost. Not sure about the amount of sparkle, I'm not as apt in reading that from the graph, but it looks massive, far more than required.

 

Also please don't forget the DBA-02/B2 correction graph I've posted earlier - you can overlap that on top of their frequency response, as below:


Edited by AstralStorm - 9/13/12 at 1:36am
post #1989 of 4120

SE 5-way comparing someone with Fostex TH900 or LCD3 or HD800?

post #1990 of 4120

In case of my SE-5 (which might sound like the original one), HD800 are noticeably more forward and brighter.

I haven't heard, but looking at the graphs, Fostex TH900 should be somewhat brighter as well, and more forward, but less than HD800.

LCD-3 should be similarly dark as LCD-2, so that's the actual match in this regard.

 

Bass on SE-5 should be closest to the Fostex TH-900 one (meaning slight enhancement). LCD-3 and HD800 have no enhancement.


Edited by AstralStorm - 9/13/12 at 10:26pm
post #1991 of 4120
Thread Starter 

I have posted the Hidition NT-6 pro review.  More pictures will be added when I have more time.

 

The new NT-6 shell:

 

 

And something else:

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralStorm View Post

In case of my SE-5 (which might sound like the original one), HD800 are noticeably more forward and brighter.

I haven't heard, but looking at the graphs, Fostex TH900 should be somewhat brighter as well, and more forward, but less than HD800.

LCD-3 should be similarly dark as LCD-2, so that's the actual match in this regard.

 

Bass on SE-5 should be closest to the Fostex TH-900 one (meaning slight enhancement). LCD-3 and HD800 have no enhancement.

 

My 5-way comparisons in other reviews posted before 5/15/12 are with the original 5-way.  I wonder if the UE PRM would work for you as you can tune the sound and add more sparkle.  My tuning is pretty close to my 5-way, but it could have been brighter.

post #1992 of 4120

Any suggestions on what custom iem's that can seriously compete with a stationary system at the moment? 

 

I currently own the Nad M51-dac, Schiit Mjolnir amp and LCD-2 with custom balanced cables and it does sound pretty damn good. 

 

My main problem is the fact that I reside in the same room as my girlfriend, and she watches a lot of tv / series when we're home while she's knitting (damn multitasker) - making me not use my headphones much because of the huge sound leak both in and out. 

 

So - I'm considering selling the LCD-2's and my beloved Mjolnir (an AMAZING combo, truth be told) and get a new non-balanced amp and a pair of superduper-customs. 

 

I've ready that some IEM's get close to the LCD-2's in the comparison, and that's good news. I'm living in Norway, and it seems Starkey is pretty close by to me, so the SA43's are obvious contenders. I do read about issues with quality though, especially cable-wise. Besides that, I already own Westone 4 and I'm pretty damn happy with them, really. I guess Westone Customs could be something. I'm also weirdly drawn to Unique Melody just because they offer huge amounts of customization and tailoring, plus the price seems "about" right. 

 

So - what do you guys think. Any amp / custom-combo that can brawl with the LCD-2's rev 2 and a pretty powerful amp? I do like my bass, but I'm also addicted to details and soundstage. I probably prefer the highs to be somewhat recessed, the LCD-2's are perfect, while every pair of HD-800 from Sennheiser I've heard have seriously annoyed me. 

 

Cheers - and thanks for an epic write-up on customs!

post #1993 of 4120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargtass View Post

Any suggestions on what custom iem's that can seriously compete with a stationary system at the moment? 

 

I currently own the Nad M51-dac, Schiit Mjolnir amp and LCD-2 with custom balanced cables and it does sound pretty damn good. 

 

My main problem is the fact that I reside in the same room as my girlfriend, and she watches a lot of tv / series when we're home while she's knitting (damn multitasker) - making me not use my headphones much because of the huge sound leak both in and out. 

 

So - I'm considering selling the LCD-2's and my beloved Mjolnir (an AMAZING combo, truth be told) and get a new non-balanced amp and a pair of superduper-customs. 

 

I've ready that some IEM's get close to the LCD-2's in the comparison, and that's good news. I'm living in Norway, and it seems Starkey is pretty close by to me, so the SA43's are obvious contenders. I do read about issues with quality though, especially cable-wise. Besides that, I already own Westone 4 and I'm pretty damn happy with them, really. I guess Westone Customs could be something. I'm also weirdly drawn to Unique Melody just because they offer huge amounts of customization and tailoring, plus the price seems "about" right. 

 

So - what do you guys think. Any amp / custom-combo that can brawl with the LCD-2's rev 2 and a pretty powerful amp? I do like my bass, but I'm also addicted to details and soundstage. I probably prefer the highs to be somewhat recessed, the LCD-2's are perfect, while every pair of HD-800 from Sennheiser I've heard have seriously annoyed me. 

 

Cheers - and thanks for an epic write-up on customs!

Not sure about an amp but the Heir 8.A might be something to look into for a CIEM. Sounds pretty close to what you're describing as an ideal sound signature for you.

 

Edit: I don't have much experience with customs - I heard the 8.A demo and it sounded similar to the LCD-2 to my ears.


Edited by pdiddypdler - 9/14/12 at 12:13am
post #1994 of 4120
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddypdler View Post

Not sure about an amp but the Heir 8.A might be something to look into for a CIEM. Sounds pretty close to what you're describing as an ideal sound signature for you.

 

Edit: I don't have much experience with customs - I heard the 8.A demo and it sounded similar to the LCD-2 to my ears.

 

Ah great suggestion! Checking out their webpage now, and will get to a review as soon as I can. At uni at the moment, but will have more time later. 

 

Wonder how that transition will be though, from huge phones to well-fitting CIEMS. It's not that the LCD-2's are a horrible fit, but they are heavy and cumbersome. I way prefer my Westone 4's for comfort, and their universals and the fit probably isn't 100% but close. 

 

Anyhow - great suggestion pdiddypdler. Huge thanks!

post #1995 of 4120

is that the UE ultimate ears?

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