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Colorfly CK4, finally some competition for the HifiMan 60X ? - Page 3

post #31 of 268
Thread Starter 

Haha, sure wink_face.gif. Assuming I'm not out of the Japan for work, you're welcome.

post #32 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchbat View Post

Hi all,

I've been trying to get some new info from the review of a prototype at soomal, and here are some of the tidbits :

 

C4 functions suppressed from CK4 :

- CUE file support

- SPDIF Input

- SRC  

 

C4K related info:

- Support confirmed for 24/192 on WAV (don't know for FLAC or APE)

- Battery life of 6-7 hours with APE and FLAC on loop with load (Vsonic GR07) on HO, 65% volume.

 

It also seems that the release date was referring to the review, rather than the player itself (again google translation), as the review was done on a prototype and not a final release model. So it will be probably some time before we see a final model in the market. I'm not even sure we can give any kind of credit to the RMAA tests done, (independantly from what was said before by Anaxilus and Shigzeo, on the meaning of doing a direct comparison of RMAA tests done in different settings), or the SQ comments.


Oh, this means we could wait some months for the actual release.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

The only way i'd suggest referencing ANY hardware test is if all the metrics are set equally with the same hardware. Or, use the RMAA FR graphs to see how well a ubit holds up under load, AND unloaded. But, don't compare other numbers. Rather, treat them as general guides.
 


 

 

Actually I wanted to find some RMAA data on the HM601, but could not find anything. Since it is not comparable at all, it does not matter then.


 

post #33 of 268

Well, why don't I take care of that for you? I've also been trying to square wave performance of it, too.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAFA View Post




Oh, this means we could wait some months for the actual release.


 

Actually I wanted to find some RMAA data on the HM601, but could not find anything. Since it is not comparable at all, it does not matter then.


 

post #34 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Well, why don't I take care of that for you? I've also been trying to square wave performance of it, too.
 



:D you got the job.

post #35 of 268
Thread Starter 

@RAFA : Unfortunately at this point your guess is as good as mine, or anyone else for that matter. But I doubt such a comprehensive review would be followed by a lot time. What would be the point ?

Besides, Shigzeo's remark makes a lot of sense. A lot of Chinese players, if not all, aren't released at the same stage of development as what we get in the west. So it could be that this "prototype" is very close to the "final" release.  

 

@Shigzeo : That would be great to have RMAA tests for a HM601 ! I've seen some results for a HM-602 on a japanese blog, but again different setting/different results (for the sake of it, here is the address : http://sonove.angry.jp/HiFiMAN_HM602.html), but I haven't seen anything on the HM-601.

This entry-level Hi-fi dap segment is getting exciting. Hope we see some more players enter this market.

post #36 of 268

Just in case you wondered: HM601 RMAA tests are up. My arm is slowing me down, so please give me another day before I give up the square wave tests. Remember, all this is done with Edirol FA-66 in OSX 10.6.5 in Sound Editor and finally, processed by RMAA (latest version) in Windows 7. Square waves will be generated by Audacity and then just sort of hand-matched in some other software.

 

Point is: anyone can do this. There isn't a single piece of professional equipment being used. 

 

Here are the HM601 RMAA tests.

post #37 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchbat View Post

@RAFA : Unfortunately at this point your guess is as good as mine, or anyone else for that matter. But I doubt such a comprehensive review would be followed by a lot time. What would be the point ?

Besides, Shigzeo's remark makes a lot of sense. A lot of Chinese players, if not all, aren't released at the same stage of development as what we get in the west. So it could be that this "prototype" is very close to the "final" release.  


Yes that are good points for an optimistic view. Hopefully it will be out till mid march.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Just in case you wondered: HM601 RMAA tests are up. My arm is slowing me down, so please give me another day before I give up the square wave tests. Remember, all this is done with Edirol FA-66 in OSX 10.6.5 in Sound Editor and finally, processed by RMAA (latest version) in Windows 7. Square waves will be generated by Audacity and then just sort of hand-matched in some other software.

 

Point is: anyone can do this. There isn't a single piece of professional equipment being used. 

 

Here are the HM601 RMAA tests.



Thank you, once I have more time, I will try it myself.

post #38 of 268

Edit: fixed the link, sorry.

post #39 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Edit: fixed the link, sorry.



If we assume that the CK4 test was made with no load... there is a great difference between the HM-601 and the CK4, especially in the total harmonic distortion and imd part there are great differences. How can this be interpreted?

post #40 of 268

Rafa, at the moment, there is no way to reference the tests you linked. James444 posted a link to the C4 driving some sort of load and falling as flat as the HiSound AM3 Pro does when driving load, maybe worse. Obviously, we need to have serious people at Headfi listen to the C4 and respond. The problem is that with so much hype (like the HiSound), expect many of them to be shills. I am sure that unloaded it is great, but so too is any player. Hell, an iPod shuffle will test as good (or better) than that unloaded.

 

My equipment isn't that good, but it outresolves the Hifiman 601, but as I mentioned, the 601 isn't about resolution, it's about feeling. I'm not a feeling person, but people who like valve amps and soft, warm-sounding stuff will probably love the HM601.

 

The C4 doesn't appear (from the link James posted... sorry, I have no idea where it is), to be able to sustain frequency response under load, even when driving dynamic earphones. That is pitiful, if true. I hope that isn't the case as, really, for the price and the hype, it is simply laughable. I hope those were in error, or who knows, but the truth is that Hifiman (and similarly, the T51) are at the top of the heap for eclectic audiophile players.

 

Now, read my meaning of audiophile as: a device meant to appeal to a certain person. I am not saying audiophile is better or worse. It is like a tailored suit. It can be good, or it can be awful. What it is, is much more expensive than usual players. You buy because you can, or because you want something nicer, or because you don't trust off-the-shelf stuff. I'd prefer to add an EQ to another player to get the top end soft, of course that doesn't solve the distortion issue. Distortion is primal in musical enjoyment and Teclast and Colorfly may not have understood this. T51 at least, holds a signal very well. The Colorfly, if it really can't hold a signal, isn't doing anything better than any other player on the market. In fact, it may be doing things a lot worse. Had the signal been rolled off under load and not under load, it would obvsiouly just be a design choice, but if not, it is a hardware issue, and for that price, isn't acceptable.

post #41 of 268


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Rafa, at the moment, there is no way to reference the tests you linked. James444 posted a link to the C4 driving some sort of load and falling as flat as the HiSound AM3 Pro does when driving load, maybe worse. Obviously, we need to have serious people at Headfi listen to the C4 and respond. The problem is that with so much hype (like the HiSound), expect many of them to be shills. I am sure that unloaded it is great, but so too is any player. Hell, an iPod shuffle will test as good (or better) than that unloaded.

 

My equipment isn't that good, but it outresolves the Hifiman 601, but as I mentioned, the 601 isn't about resolution, it's about feeling. I'm not a feeling person, but people who like valve amps and soft, warm-sounding stuff will probably love the HM601.

 

The C4 doesn't appear (from the link James posted... sorry, I have no idea where it is), to be able to sustain frequency response under load, even when driving dynamic earphones. That is pitiful, if true. I hope that isn't the case as, really, for the price and the hype, it is simply laughable. I hope those were in error, or who knows, but the truth is that Hifiman (and similarly, the T51) are at the top of the heap for eclectic audiophile players.

 

Now, read my meaning of audiophile as: a device meant to appeal to a certain person. I am not saying audiophile is better or worse. It is like a tailored suit. It can be good, or it can be awful. What it is, is much more expensive than usual players. You buy because you can, or because you want something nicer, or because you don't trust off-the-shelf stuff. I'd prefer to add an EQ to another player to get the top end soft, of course that doesn't solve the distortion issue. Distortion is primal in musical enjoyment and Teclast and Colorfly may not have understood this. T51 at least, holds a signal very well. The Colorfly, if it really can't hold a signal, isn't doing anything better than any other player on the market. In fact, it may be doing things a lot worse. Had the signal been rolled off under load and not under load, it would obvsiouly just be a design choice, but if not, it is a hardware issue, and for that price, isn't acceptable.


Understood.

 

 

One should be careful, if something is marketed as audiophile, since this term has its own definition to every single person. I sometimes read these discussions about what is audiophile and ask myself, if I am one of those audiophiles. I guess not, because I like more musical equipment, just like the HM-601, or the ESW9 as headphone for example. If think if somebody is audiophile, this person tends to more technical listening and neutrality. The CK4 catches my interest because it has a large screen and has the top of the line Cirrus DAC inside.

 

I definitely cannot see much learning effect in those companies, except Fiio. The T51, HM-601/2, CK4 are somehow first generation devices and what actually makes me angry that Teclast does not bring out a T52, with improvements. There are at least 10 forums for sure that collected lists of bugs that could be made better. This is unused potential. When not buying mainstream products we are doomed to be guinea pigs for "start-from-scratch" "next-version-from-prototype" products.

 

On the other hand it is fun to be a hifi-enthusiast :)

post #42 of 268

Fun, indeed!

 

Regarding Fiio, however: they are not an audiophile company in the same way. They make items that fit pricewise into brackets that no audiophile company would ever fathom - that and they perform very well. Those two things put them into another bracket.

 

I think that the mainstream (mass market understanding of audiophile) definition of audiophile is a person that seeks the utmost of audio fidelity, but it rarely pans out that way. Usually, audiophiles go for a certain flavour and pan neutrality and most of all: the mass market. There are very very few audiophiles that ever come close to getting what they hope. There are too many adverts, too much crazy marketing to run through. The audiophile world is a mess of craziness. If you can find something that works and performs how you like it, so be it. God bless you. I've never seen a dyed-in-the-wool self-proclaimed audiophile go for anything 'big' without a lot of grumbling. Even when they do, they buy another and go rather unsatisfied.

 

Everyone has part of that in them. Music lovers tend to just enjoy the music and may focus on earphones without getting caught up in other marketing ploys. Let's be honest here: the people who spend the most money are not the ones who get a LOD and an amp; they're the ones that buy expensive players and replace them every six months or less. Guilty (myself). I've gone through about 10 in the last few years, not because I think one will be magical, but because I get excited.

 

A lot of people think they will be magical, though. 

 

There is NO magic in electronics unless you are Tesla.

 

Sound comes from calculated decisions and you have to decide what calculation you like. So, I hope the CK4 does well. But I hope more than that, that audiophile companies start to make their stuff worthy: easy to use, hearkening to the music, not to the philosophy that stains magazines and internet forums.

 

In any case: ID3 tag support is important. Drag and drop into one folder and be done with it. No one should have to name folders to get songs to work. Files should play gaplessly. And for God's sake, hiss, nasty horrid background hiss should be eliminated in 'audiophile' players. 

 

Finally, high or low pass, it doesn't matter. If that is part of the design, wonderful. But if it isn't, and that player can't sustain its own signal under load, it is a waste of money. If it can't sustain load and needs an amp... what is it for?

 

These are big problems that don't plague mass-market players as much. By now, they have low noise floors, very good driving power, and are easy to use. I want audiophiles to get something good, but all I see is the heaping together of ideas. Among them, Hifiman edges Teclast for overall usefulness, but not by enough. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAFA View Post


 


Understood.

 

 

One should be careful, if something is marketed as audiophile, since this term has its own definition to every single person. I sometimes read these discussions about what is audiophile and ask myself, if I am one of those audiophiles. I guess not, because I like more musical equipment, just like the HM-601, or the ESW9 as headphone for example. If think if somebody is audiophile, this person tends to more technical listening and neutrality. The CK4 catches my interest because it has a large screen and has the top of the line Cirrus DAC inside.

 

I definitely cannot see much learning effect in those companies, except Fiio. The T51, HM-601/2, CK4 are somehow first generation devices and what actually makes me angry that Teclast does not bring out a T52, with improvements. There are at least 10 forums for sure that collected lists of bugs that could be made better. This is unused potential. When not buying mainstream products we are doomed to be guinea pigs for "start-from-scratch" "next-version-from-prototype" products.

 

On the other hand it is fun to be a hifi-enthusiast :)

post #43 of 268

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo
 
Regarding Fiio, however: they are not an audiophile company in the same way. They make items that fit pricewise into brackets that no audiophile company would ever fathom - that and they perform very well. Those two things put them into another bracket.

 

That is true till now, but I don't know if you heard about the E17. I think from some point on they will enter this "audiophile" market on another level. E17 is promised to have digital in and a sophisticated dac, etc. However, with their experience and ability to listen to the community, Fiio will be able to make a step towards what we want portable audiphile to be.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo

 

I think that the mainstream (mass market understanding of audiophile) definition of audiophile is a person that seeks the utmost of audio fidelity, but it rarely pans out that way. Usually, audiophiles go for a certain flavour and pan neutrality and most of all: the mass market. There are very very few audiophiles that ever come close to getting what they hope. There are too many adverts, too much crazy marketing to run through. The audiophile world is a mess of craziness. If you can find something that works and performs how you like it, so be it. God bless you. I've never seen a dyed-in-the-wool self-proclaimed audiophile go for anything 'big' without a lot of grumbling. Even when they do, they buy another and go rather unsatisfied.

 

 

Yeah crazy marketing, like for example the marketing stuff around BBE and Cube C60/30. My entry to this head-fi world was the Shure E2C. That confused me that much, because they sounded worse than my stock earphones. But I was kind of hypnotized still wearing them. Later it came out that my E2C were fake. The first time I really liked something "audiophile" I bought were the Sennheiser IE8. Then the Ultrasone 900 PRO crazily dissapointed me, and so on... It is kind of luck to find something that really gives one that pleasure that you were looking for.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo
 
Everyone has part of that in them. Music lovers tend to just enjoy the music and may focus on earphones without getting caught up in other marketing ploys. Let's be honest here: the people who spend the most money are not the ones who get a LOD and an amp; they're the ones that buy expensive players and replace them every six months or less. Guilty (myself). I've gone through about 10 in the last few years, not because I think one will be magical, but because I get excited.

 

I bough the HM-601 somewhere around December/January and in the middle of January I bought the Archos 32. After that i promissed myself not to buy anything till at least april, but I saw the CK4... this is addiction.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo
 
In any case: ID3 tag support is important. Drag and drop into one folder and be done with it. No one should have to name folders to get songs to work. Files should play gaplessly. And for God's sake, hiss, nasty horrid background hiss should be eliminated in 'audiophile' players.

 

There is no "audiophile" DAP that shows ID3 Tags correclty. This is so dissapointing every time. I am one of those people who spend the whole night by tagging their music correctly in 2-3 formats. I am sure there are more people like me. Yeah and the background noise horror. It is magical for sure when you know already 2 seconds before you get a SMS, that you will get a SMS.

 

At the moment there is some rumor about apple and 24/96 files. If this comes true, Apple has to bring out devices that are capable of reproducing such HD music. Even though I am not the bigges fan of Apple, I somehow hope that Apple will bring out an audiophile product. It will be interesting what Apple is understanding by audiophile.

 

post #44 of 268

^^^^^^^^excellent post^^^^^^^^   shigzeo's post!

 

With so many dap's and amps coming out this year its gonna be great for enthusiasts.  

 

Anyway i shot an email in german to the distributors to see if they had any info to share......... will wait, observe and report.

post #45 of 268

It comes down to this: audiophile companies are never ever real software designers with experience in R&D. They are visionaries that for fear of being ripped off, never check with anyone but users. They need to do real trouble shooting. They need to hire and invest in real software developers. Hardware hacks did the trick when the first DAP's came out, but that was 13 or 14 years ago and their only competition was from dumb CD and MD players...

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