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post #31 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by holland View Post



 

I suggest you read the plot.  It's idealistic, as it's based on an ideal capacitor and an ideal resistor.  The shift is non-linear with frequency, as such it is distortion.  The use of the term phase distortion is correct.  Different real life capacitors will respond differently, as you noted in your first sentence of the quote.  Audibility of it was not the issue.  The willful introduction of said distortion was.

 

I don't know what exactly it is you are getting at, but you remind me of a number of recent trolls on the boards.  I suggest you try it out and try to prove your points with data instead of being argumentative, with incomplete and unsupported hypothesis.

 

You're obviously googling (as you quoted wiki) and then using those results to try and dominate the discussion as the authority figure.  However, that's failing you immensely, as your behavior is both asinine and immature.  You're obviously a troll as you keyed off of phase distortion as being IMD, admittedly not the same by the poster when called on it, and drove the whole thread into the toilet.

 

If you want to have a meaningful discussion, it would help to drop the attitude, but at this point, it's unclear what exactly it is you are getting at.  Audibility of capacitors?  That's simple, try a few yourself and see for yourself.

Good point about graphs being idealistic.  Nikongod, your graphs are idealistic.  You are welcome to use real compoents and paste some graphs.  Maybe we may find distortions.   It is qusp that mistakenly equated phase distortion as IMD.  And I have pointed that out.  Also, I think wiki is more reliable than any of qusp's explainations so far or his links.  Given that qusp is concerned with phase distortion as he called it(or was it IMD according to qusp?), I have looked it up and pasted what I have found from wiki.
 

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post #32 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rds View Post

Those graphs show phase distortion.  I don't know why you're talking about IMD.  I've never heard of IMD being a significant issue in passive analog filters.  If you do want to talk about it quantitatively then you'd need to characterize the specific system you're using.  I don't think you can say much about it generally in this case.

 

 




 


hes talking about it because i mentioned phase distortion and imd in the same sentence with a backslash between them as a possible effect, i've since indicated this could well have been in error, my main point was phase distortion, as indicated by my further posts, the graphs and the math. since in some of the lit i read i thought i remembered reading mentioned both, i put it in there as a possible ADDITIONAL yet linked effect and ever since then hes latched onto this and seems to think phase distortion is a figment of my personal results and other people with real expertise in this area's research. also now actual simulated results

 

now hes frothing at the mouth about me building things that i didnt design and invent the novel concepts for, while replicating (or at least talking about replicating) an lod with 2 caps inline into a 10k0 impedance (something pretty easily discovered by actually doing it), also seems to now be arguing with one of the most matter of fact no nonsense posters i've seen in this forum about its existence, because he doesnt understand the concept as well as he thinks and since he obviously has ZERO actual practical experience to draw from, i guess he must be getting a bit frustrated by now.

 

common sense isnt all that common it seems

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post #33 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Q View Post



Good point about graphs being idealistic.  Nikongod, your graphs are idealistic.  You are welcome to use real compoents and paste some graphs.  Maybe we may find distortions.

 

Well, no.  Idealistic or not, it is there.  Real components would introduce additional distortion due to the material properties in the capacitor itself.  You would get the results of the ideal plot or more.

 

Again, what is it that you want?  You obviously have a thing for qusp, and possibly a history, but barring that, what do you want?

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post #34 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:36pm

yeah i've been trying to think of history too, might have to do a search because i sure dont have a thing with him (until now) and posted in here with experience of what hes trying to do, with a factor he clearly didnt know of; but the reaction was so extreme and persistent i can only think there is some other root cause; or he simply just has issues. until today and after today, he doesnt even register, dont remember ever talking or interacting with him before

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post #35 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:42pm
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland View Post

Again, what is it that you want?  You obviously have a thing for qusp, and possibly a history, but barring that, what do you want?

I am trying to get suggestions on capacitors, and in the process I have found inconsistancies in qusp responses.  Also, I am investigating phenomena of phase distortion in audio at this point.  

 

@ Holland, can you explain how the distortion is there in the ideal situation?  By distortion, do you mean delay or shift in the signal?  Because there will be delay of the signal through capacitor.
 

Here is explaination from wiki:

 

 

Phase distortion

Main article: Phase distortion

 Here, all the components of the input signal are not amplified with the same phase shift, hence causing some parts of the output signal to be out of phase with the rest of the output.

 

Agrees with what I have stated earlier.  So, if you send a tone signal, there cannot be phase distortion in the ideal situation.

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post #36 of 42
2/25/11 at 11:47pm

remember i cannot see you.... go bother someone else

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post #37 of 42
2/26/11 at 12:05am

i do wish there was a 'fully ignore' feature though... anyway i'll leave you to froth away in peace, my statement is real and has been vindicated. ive explained myself and my side to others who have wondered and do not see there is anything more of value to anyone else and certainly not to me to continue in this thread, there never was anything in it for me. i dont expect you to accept that, you are too far along to accept there was something you didnt understand; so i'm happy to concede that you are obviously smarter than me if thats what gets you by at night.

 

i suggest you stop talking and start doing, dont take my word for it, or others that have agreed. the experiment is cheap and easy to reproduce, nothing special in making it. just as with my projects, the hardest part with them is casework, along with eventually making some pcbs for control and charge management for the portable, which i'm sure will provide challenges, but thats part of the fun

 

i can only hope you start to find some actual enjoyment in the hobby instead of looking at it as something to pump yourself up with.

 

so bye now.

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post #38 of 42
2/26/11 at 12:22am
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp View Post

i do wish there was a 'fully ignore' feature though... 

yeah, few posts ago you said you would ignore.  I guess that didn't happen.  If you really wish to ignore, you can stop reading the thread and stop posting maybe?  Has that ever occured to you?confused_face(1).gif  Anyway, enjoy your hobby, as I will enjoy many projects that I am working on at work.  
 

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post #39 of 42
2/26/11 at 12:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Q View Post

Quote:

I am trying to get suggestions on capacitors, and in the process I have found inconsistancies in qusp responses.  Also, I am investigating phenomena of phase distortion in audio at this point.  

 

@ Holland, can you explain how the distortion is there in the ideal situation?  By distortion, do you mean delay or shift in the signal?  Because there will be delay of the signal through capacitor.
 

Here is explaination from wiki:

 

 

Phase distortion

Main article: Phase distortion

 Here, all the components of the input signal are not amplified with the same phase shift, hence causing some parts of the output signal to be out of phase with the rest of the output.

 

Agrees with what I have stated earlier.  So, if you send a tone signal, there cannot be phase distortion in the ideal situation.

 


I can't help you on capacitors.  It's subjective.  The best is to try a few cheap ones and see what fits your liking, and then explore more if you need to.  Your LOD size would constrain your choices, but it's best to set that aside as you explore, to allow you to dive into the various film and oil caps.  Every person would have their own "worth" cut-offs or the point of inaudibility.

 

Phase distortion.  There are papers out there from lipschitz, hartman, toole, ludwig, etc.

 

Music is not a pulse signal.  It is an amalgam of different frequencies.  From the plot you will see that @ 10Hz it is ~63deg out of phase.  At 100Hz it is 6 deg out of phase.  This is non-linear with frequency.  This means part of your music will be shifted, and other parts not shifted.  This is not a good idea, if you want to try and build something that is supposed to be an improvement to amplifier alternatives.

 

In Nikongod's plots, phase is the dotted line that goes from top to bottom as you move across frequency from left to right.  The phase and frequency response plots are overlaid on top of each other, with the common reference being frequency on the horizontal scale.  The phase change introduced, and the single pole analog filter, is a direct response to the high pass RC filter.

 

That aside, if you can avoid introducing phase distortion, why fret over audibility or not?  Just don't do it when it's easily avoidable.  To remove any frequency roll-off, you're moving the phase distortion out of band as well.  As I'm sure you know, having a corner frequency in the audio band means you drop off before the corner frequency.

 

You can analyze all of this with SPICE simulations if you don't recall your basic EE courses.

 

Also, read this

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post #40 of 42
2/26/11 at 12:47am
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the explaination Holland, and your link explains what I need to know very well.  I am aware of music being mix of signals, and inconsistant shift causes distortion.  I thought the Nikongod's graphs was a tone signal, but its phase shift vs freq as explained on your link.  I see that since the phase graph is not constant, there will be distortion.  I have made an LOD using 10uF Nichicon, but willing to explore other brands, and was just curious why certain brands were favored here.  I guess I will have to find out.  I just wanted some helpful explainations from people thats all.  What other caps besides Silmic or Muse should I try?

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post #41 of 42
2/26/11 at 1:05pm

Parts Connextion have a very comprehensive range of "audio grade” capacitors that are favoured by a lot DIYers, if the same part from Mouser or DigiKey is available it should be cheaper dependent on shipping. But the listing is convenient for what you may be seeking. 

 

http://www.partsconnexion.com/

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post #42 of 42
2/27/11 at 3:14am

 

Quote:
 

I have to say that this thread got a bit ugly . . . 

 Ego does have that effect.........

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