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Hip Hop: An Analysis - Page 2

post #16 of 108

I understand. You might prefer something along more "instrumental" lines. Nujabes is pretty popular to start with, many of his tracks have soul and jazz influence as well. I like DJ Okawari also. the Digi Crates label has some good artists as well. Repetition is unavoidable, it's everywhere in music, but the tracks without rapping often have more going on.

 

I'm obviously pushing towards a different side of hip hop with my examples, but I want to try and show that there is something beyond the standard. This is just one, perhaps sub-genre, branch that extends from the tree.


Edited by earthpeople - 3/7/11 at 8:35pm
post #17 of 108

I did have problems with rap initially, somewhere along the proces though, I started to appreciate it. What it lacks in tonal differences, it makes up for in rythm. In terms of lyrics, I always turn to deep puddle dynamics (a group of atmosphere's Slug and three other mc's). The beats are repetative (I really don't have a problem with that, but then again, I never had any problems with repetetive music ie techno or steve reich), and Dose One is an utter idiot and stupid MC. but in terms of lyrics it's great.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

slug:
descending on the center, from the outskirts of obscurity
with a raised fist, symbolization of the urgency,
strength blowing kisses and winks toward adversity,
subtle yet as vital as the ink on your currency...

sole:
i�m currently spiraling sinking inking melatonin
toning governing soft naturally firm in �lost,
fell off the edge of the whirlpool� thoughts
intangible, in this civiliazation,
lacing loud scream slew attachment to parchment
in my apartment, we all wear yellow rubber jackets

slug:
give me some more i�d like to taste,
swallow it whole and wipe your face,

alias:
tickling at your sense of thought,
this square is brought for knowledge

dose one:
apply, it ripples twisting, twisting your gnomes trickle

sole:
or lack of the above, this crowd submerge yourself in puddles

alias:
light reflecting off soft waves
make it a blurred aspect subject
to ponder the vertical dynamics of further respect
one cannot truly feel the mass between the top and bottom points,
h20 is a symbolism we have chosen to use as an annointment, thoughts are sent,
thinking it skimming it skip in,
dip in my entire action creator and popular inflator
flotation devices are your vices dislocate your elevator,
later you will yearn and pray if the liquid form break from the norm
open wide face up to attempt to, and take particles from the storm

dose one:
you�ve thirst for substance of decisive ground
twice as round as your skin�s tough, wait, no, further,
we touch bottom and break surface depth as our eldest daughter,
with your eyes and no ones fear.

slug:
took a dip last week through the liquid that gathered
near the tip of that peak that exists in my matter
i taught myself to survive without my feet on the ground
i never felt so alive as when i drowned...

dose one:
a pebble moistened, vines dripped, drip, blessed drip, were saved, a puddle...

dose one:
bestill the shores bend and splash,
heavy rye on life preserve...

sole:
but still pouring friend, i�m asking asphault may i melt here
beat down by the aquarium that we all deserve to break from

slug:
reflecting what's observed, deep, straight, and every curve

alias:
swerve and meant to contend with four with life form purposes served

sole:
i put my greatest foot into the ice cold pool

dose one:
and roll off the most intense of steps been ever...

all:
the rebels, leviathin, risen, prominence,
wet stone, monolith, drinking, continence,

dose one:
and the unaninmous, smells leaking definitely,
is sour of audience, captive, isn�t it,
the end and the all-muddied, that�s our humble home,
�you� is a soaked in yes...

all:
release, niagara, anxious, fragments,
pause, deep puddle dynamics

sole:
we, an arched antartical snow ball, falling through the deserts

dose one:
set sensitive, a fluid too present for dense

slug:
i see numerous seeds free-floating upon the chemistry

alias:
evaporation is non-existence in this conglammorate form by energy

slug:
the dawn contorts the destiny, pathway unpredictable,
ripples hold the visions, a chisel in it now positions...

alias:
visions waving and squiggling constantly moving hard to realize my eyes
ears in listening are tools for saving you from your intelligence demise

slug:
i took a dip last week through the liquid that gathered
near the tip of that peak that exists in my matter
i taught to myself to survive without my feet on the ground
i never felt so alive as when i drowned...

dose one:
a pebble moistened, vines dripped, drip, blessed drip, were saved, a puddle...

alias:
do you understand the presentation of, dynamics,
do you understand the innovation of dynamics...

sole:
i�m in love with a flying mermaid, she brings me glass of air and plates
sings me songs of how we used to love concrete,
all my dreams are coral reefs, and my love is a tree
and we view shattered moon like chattering
of all the things we (gonna) wanta (oughta) be.

dose one:
my sweet sound safe cab beauty is far up longing stare at the determined mariner,

alias:
navigating through those debating our interest value,
envisioning a reach to arrive on an island where anxious waiters fill the beach...

slug:
surfacing for breath, inhale, and then return to the depths
submerged in the verses where the worth is kept

sole:
viceless, exotic, exciting 'til we evaporate,
draw my mass upon your peninsula, aquatic colors to illustrate...

dose one:
the sailing power set within a siren stone...

alias:
longing to reach the shore, engulf themselves in music free of pours of mideon...

slug:
my word is my springboard,
wearing my water wings for, the dive...

sole:
and i slit my throat for gills in the event i gotta survive...

dose one:
we are the raft, the bank, the drift, the kelp,
the 40,000 leagues of inspiration treasured never discovered.

alias:
untouched by timeless traveling, amoebas see the crest overbearing
no sea-faring individuals are present in my crowd staring...

slug:
standing, fathoming the distance, between the existing rationalizations
against the average pistons fascinations,
it�s handheld, however as hard as the waves break,
it would take eight hands to craft the puzzle of the puddle�s sake

slug:
took a dip last week through the liquid that gathered
near the tip of that peak that exists in my matter
i taught to myself to survive without my feet on the ground
i never felt so alive as when i drowned...

dose one:
a pebble moistened, vines dripped, drip, blessed drip, were saved, a puddle...

alias:
do you understand the presentation of, dynamics,
do you understand the innovation of dynamics...

sole:
were all having fun, laying in the moss,
layed down the tower, before we all trip,
one finger, two finger, three finger pregnant...

all:
row row row your reel, gently down the stream,
merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a sinking feeling...

If you're looking for something instrumental, try long arm.


Edited by Ynoskire - 3/7/11 at 9:07pm
post #18 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post


1. Original composition. Composition is not taking a musical phrase from someone else.
2. Development of the composition. Not just three or four catchy bars, but where a musical phrase is developed and explored.
3. Musicianship. Someone playing an instrument or two.
4. Avoiding clichés.
5. Lyrics that can be interpreted on multiple levels.
 

Earthpeople got most of the main points down. Instruments are not necessary in music. Sure most people including yourself may prefer instruments in music but hip-hop has always been about the MC and DJ. Do you consider electronic music a genre?

 

The roots is a popular hip-hop band that uses live instruments in their performances. Though just because they use instruments doesnt make them my favorite hip-hop group.

 

Im at school so gotta keep this short... probably no use of live instruments but this doesnt fit your description of hip-hop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r754jCpD3Xg

 

post #19 of 108


Quote:
 
1. Original composition. Composition is not taking a musical phrase from someone else.
post #20 of 108

A few years ago I had a similar opinion to Uncle Erik about hip-hop/rap yet I soon discovered Eminem's Slim Shady LP and Marshall Mather's LP and my opinion quickly began to change. The way he sets the mood and atmosphere is just amazing. Due to my new found love of these albums I soon started listening to more hip-hop and rap, I soon discovered Deltron 3030, The Notorious B.I.G., A Tribe Called Quest, Lauryn Hill, e.t.c and  I was amazed by the musicianship and all my original idea's about hip-hop completely changed.

 

I also feel some of your points were fairly ignorant such as your point about the lack of development and exploration and samples, as many rap and hip-hop artists clearly experiment and spend large amounts of effort and time developing and building on idea's.

I really suggest you listen to one of the Artist's I listed, as you may form a different opinion.


Edited by jackmccabe - 3/10/11 at 11:23am
post #21 of 108

post #22 of 108

If a Hip Hop album reaches the same level of 'completeness' as Pete Philly & Perquisite's "Mystery Repeats" I am in. If not, say Run DMC's "Run DMC" than a few tracks have to save the album from mediocrity and "Rock Box" is such a track. 

 

There is also this album "A Little Deeper" from Ms. Dynamite which has this track "Dy-na-mi-tee". It still sounds amazing but the album as a whole just sounds less than amazing.

 

There is more to Hip Hop if you listen closely but I still partly agree with Uncle Erik and I used to be an avid Hip Hop listener. 

 

You want something original? Try K-os' "Superstar Part Zero" from his album "Exit", I would almost call it Jazz but that honour goes to Souls Of Mischief. 


Edited by Deep Funk - 3/12/11 at 1:36pm
post #23 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltrane View Post


Much better! Though when he starts rapping I still want to stop listening, but this track scores much higher on the composition scale than most of the others. But if we are being completely honest, the song is probably 10% rap/hip hop. So this isn't really representative of rap or hip hop in general. Its a good direction though and I hope it is a direction more are going towards. 

 

Edit: Looks like the rapper is constant and the singer was a guest, so yea, still not a fan barring this one song which I though was decent, and that too for the singing parts. 

 


Edited by Daanish - 3/12/11 at 6:45pm
post #24 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Funk View Post

 

You want something original? Try K-os' "Superstar Part Zero" from his album "Exit", I would almost call it Jazz but that honour goes to Souls Of Mischief. 


Just listening to it now, and again the best parts are when it us just music or him singing, not when he starts rapping. And its basically the same repetitive tune for the whole song barring one 'solo' section near the end. Not really jazz but jazz influenced to a very tiny tiny degree. Real jazz is far more complex and layered and just all round better as a form of music. 

 


Edited by Daanish - 3/12/11 at 6:50pm
post #25 of 108

Agreed, "Superstar Part Zero" would be even better if done with the backing of full band and vocalists. Too bad he did not...

 

I am of the opinion more MCs(/rap vocalists) should work with actual bands, particularly Soul and Jazz influenced bands because relying on samples and beats alone is not all. Kyteman is an example of a multi-instrumentalist who worked with MCs and an (Hip Hop) orchestra. The Early Linkin Park had an interesting mix of MC + 'Rock' band + Mr. Hahn.

 

Still, some Hip Hip artists know how to make sampling an art and making samples in cohesion work as a whole is - I think - not easy. 

post #26 of 108

@Daanish I am sorry but your point about jazz being a better genre of music seems a bit silly, because music is largely personal preference and there is no way you can say one entire genre is better than another.

Also I don't think you realise, but rap is pretty much entirely about the vocals so really it does not need a backing band to fill it out.

Despite what I have said I love jazz and prefer it by quite a large margin to hip-hop, but I can still appreciate why others like it so much.

post #27 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccabe View Post

@Daanish I am sorry but your point about jazz being a better genre of music seems a bit silly, because music is largely personal preference and there is no way you can say one entire genre is better than another.

Also I don't think you realise, but rap is pretty much entirely about the vocals so really it does not need a backing band to fill it out.

Despite what I have said I love jazz and prefer it by quite a large margin to hip-hop, but I can still appreciate why others like it so much.

 

If you read the whole thread, you will see the whole argument is about debating the merits of rap as a form of music. I said it isn't for reasons stated previously and asked if people could show me otherwise and so far I still maintain my stance. 

 

If rap is simply about monotone vocals I find it very very difficult to consider it music of any form. And yes, jazz, on its own is far more complex musically and requires mastery of an actual  instrument and a focus on song construction. It on its own is a far more valid form of music as compared to rap. If you prefer rap, power to you, but how you can argue that the musical merits of rap could in any way be better or equal to jazz is beyond me. 
 

 

post #28 of 108

I don't think you can compare two such different Genre's of music and say one is outright better than the other.

Your argument about jazz being more complex so therefore better is fairly idiotic as that would therefore make extremley technical genre's such as mathcore, technicall death metal, e.t.c  the best whereas that is clearly about taste.

I also feel that you haven't actually listened to much hip-hop or rap, so I would suggest you listen to either "slim shady LP"  "Marshall Mathers LP" by Eminem or "Ready to die" by" The Notorious B.I.G

If you still think rappers are talentless and "monotone" then that is your personal opinion and you need to understand that.

When you talk about musical merit's what do you mean more complex and more difficult to play doesn't mean better, I judge music on it's creativity, expression of thoughts and feelings, how well it is performed and development of idea's through out the album.

 

You saying rap is better than jazz is like me saying metal, electronic or blues is better than jazz, I feel it is just rather moronic as each genre has it's own merits and appeals to people in different ways.

For instance the Beatles whom I have nothing against aren't the most technically talented musician's yet they are creative and despite being fairly simple they create highly regarded music.

 

 

 

 

post #29 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccabe View Post

I don't think you can compare two such different Genre's of music and say one is outright better than the other.

Your argument about jazz being more complex so therefore better is fairly idiotic as that would therefore make extremley technical genre's such as mathcore, technicall death metal, e.t.c  the best whereas that is clearly about taste.

I also feel that you haven't actually listened to much hip-hop or rap, so I would suggest you listen to either "slim shady LP"  "Marshall Mathers LP" by Eminem or "Ready to die" by" The Notorious B.I.G

If you still think rappers are talentless and "monotone" then that is your personal opinion and you need to understand that.

When you talk about musical merit's what do you mean more complex and more difficult to play doesn't mean better, I judge music on it's creativity, expression of thoughts and feelings, how well it is performed and development of idea's through out the album.

 

You saying rap is better than jazz is like me saying metal, electronic or blues is better than jazz, I feel it is just rather moronic as each genre has it's own merits and appeals to people in different ways.

For instance the Beatles whom I have nothing against aren't the most technically talented musician's yet they are creative and despite being fairly simple they create highly regarded music.

 

 

 

 


Wow seriously? Name calling? How old are you?

 

When I say it has more merit as a form of music I mean abidance by the principles of music, i.e. understanding theory, technique, having some form of mastery over an instrument, song composition etc. Most of that is in very little evidence in rap. And I'm sorry 'personal preference' is a total cop out and PC argument. If I bang a stick against a metal can and call that music and say it is better than say classical or jazz, clearly I am in the wrong. I am not commenting on personal preference, like I said, if you prefer something power to you, enjoy it. And neither did I say rappers were talentless, I said it is not music, rather a form of spoken word poetry. And yes, technical death, mathcore etc are all better representatives of music because they abide by the principles I've mentioned before and what is more, they do everything you listed (creativity, expression of thoughts and feelings, how well it is performed and development of idea's through out the album) with far better utilization of the tools of music. I can do a dance number that does all of your criteria, would that make it music? No, because it lacks all the elements that make music music. While rap is not as devoid, it is far too limited to be classified as a form of music. Regarding the monotonicity of rap, it isn't an opinion, it is a fact, rap requires very little vocal control or training, how are you even arguing otherwise? Whatever change in tone that there is is minimal, again, little utilization of the element's that make music music. I could go on and on. If the entire structure of a song is based around a vocalist speaking words at one steady tempo and tone with occasional variety in the middle, while the beat stays almost identical the whole way through, again, it demonstrates little use of the elements and fundamentals of what makes music music. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. 

 

And FYI, I have heard all three albums you listed and hasn't changed my opinion one bit, in fact those were among the first albums of the genre I heard many years ago when I first got introduced to rap/hip hop. The root's video posted above is far closer to being music than any of those three albums. So I suggest you try debate things out like an adult without resorting to name calling  and actually read through the thread so see what we are debating about in the first place. 

 


Edited by Daanish - 3/13/11 at 12:16pm
post #30 of 108

I at no point called you an idiot I just stated the simple fact that your idea is idiotic, as rather than being able to accept that other people do not share your opinion, you attempt to force your fairly ignorant viewpoint through.

Also I feel that you didn't quite grasp what I was saying, I don't have anything against technical death metal mathcore I actually love them but I was just pointing out many people do not like it despite that fact that it requires extreme technical skill.

I think that you disregarding rap and hip-hop as music is extremely ignorant and truthfully there is little point arguing with as you have your own opinion and "personal preference's" and I am not going to be able to change that no matter how much I argue with you.

 

 

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