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What exactly makes dac <a> better than <b> if both are based on the same chip? (and related...

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 

I've been mulling over two upgrade paths:

 

1. (going DIY and building myself a Buffalo II & B22)

2. (buying an NFB-10ES.)  

 

On paper the NFB-10 is based around the same dac chip as the Buffalo II.  The amp section of NFB10 is all class A and balanced like the B22.

 

So what exactly, technically, causes the difference between gear like the B32 & the B22 versus something like the NFB10?  

 

Why are they (B32 & B22) better?   

 

  1. Is it just that there's more power being fed to the separate components?
  2. Would power make that much more of a difference?  
  3. Is there more to it than just that?

 

I'd like to exclude cost and difficulty of builds from the discussion.

 

Edit: post cleaned up for readability.

 

[By the way, I'm just using the B32 & B22 as an example for this question.]

 

post #2 of 37

a chip is not a circuit.

post #3 of 37

the output stage.

post #4 of 37

power supplies, PCB layout, etc.

post #5 of 37

X2 layout and routing, I believe a well made DIY sabre is superior. if cost isnt in the picture, check out the ackodac AKD12P

post #6 of 37

chip = potential 

pcb’s, power supply, output stage, layout and routing = potential realised

 

well, that’s the way I look at it.

post #7 of 37
Whatever costs the most sounds the best.

biggrin.gif
post #8 of 37

Nikongod has it right - the output stage - as it is the analog side of the equation and there are plenty of potential differences/options there including component quality, types of components used for the amplifier (discrete vs OpAmps, etc.) and so on.

 

Power supplies, assuming good filtering, shielding and capacity design, have minimal impact.  Most layout is done using PCB layout software on PCs these days, so that is largely science.

 

Truth is, most contemporary DACs using identical chips should sound very similar or identical while switching headphones or speakers (i.e., transducers) will make a much more noticeable difference.

post #9 of 37

As weird as it may sound, I really like the sound of my fairly inexpensive Zhalou-TC

 

A zhalou with a transformer output stage. 

 

There are a few resistors & caps to roll off the treble -3db@40khz to combat the resonant frequency of the transformer, but it was really inexpensive to build... I cant measure THD, but Im sure it sucks.

post #10 of 37
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the answers.  

 

And just to confirm, we are talking about audible differences with better PCBs, output stages, power supplies, layouts, and routing on [edit: utilizing] the same chip, right?

 

I ask because (for example) there are "dual mono" dacs out there that are superior on paper but [the gains realized with the dual mono design are] not within the range of human hearing.  With the improved components we speak of above, are the differences audible?

 

(I'd like to exclude the issue of hum with one box builds, let's just assume it's a two case design if necessary.)

post #11 of 37

A chip is not a circuit.  The circuit defines the usage of the chip.  A chip can be used in many ways, for a DAC some of the more basic ones are disabling on-chip digital filtering and using FPGA.  Dual mono can mean different things for different purposes, and it's not just about noise.  There can be features only available in dual mono, an example is the PCM1794, which can only have external filtering in dual mono configurations.

 

For things like layout and routing, there are differences, particularly on the digital side, to ensure that additional noise is not injected before the D->A conversion.

 

Barring that, on the digital side, there are sonic impacts from filtering algorithms.  This is one of the differentiators on the high end devices, where and how filtering is done.

 

Parts can be related like this:

 

Circuit schematic - architecture plans.  This includes how the chip is to be utilized, what features, etc. i.e., one or two story house, concrete slab, basement, attic, etc. and materials to use, copper plumbing vs PVC, etc.  A chip can be instrumented in multiple and various ways.

 

Floorplan/layout - execution of architecture plans.  The exact parts to use, model of wallboard, accessories, etc., and how they are installed, how many nails to use, how to seal the seams, etc..  How many houses have you been in where there were issues that don't show up in the plans?  Lots, if you've ever bought a house!

 

Audible, sure, using analogies.  A house with paper walls vs drywall...wiring to code vs. a fire hazard.  The list goes on.  The flip side will be, are you able to recognize what it is you are hearing?  Most people cannot, particularly at first.

 

THD isn't everything, but on the other hand, removing unnecessary distortion surely isn't a bad thing.  Surely the "best" of designs would have both low THD, excellent impulse response, excellent phase distortion, as well as sonic pleasantries, etc.

 

People always argue about "what's on paper" and then saying only ears matter.  In my experience, those that say only ears matter tend to be ignorant of how to interpret data or completely misinterpret what is in the specifications.  Ears are one of the worst measuring devices ever, because the brain gets in the way.  Sound I "enjoyed" 10-20 years ago, is most definitely not at the same enjoyment I have today.  Measurements, on the other hand, won't change as long as the process is deterministic...i.e., not probing the proper place by luck.

 

Why don't you try and build something and see for yourself?  To properly have an opinion on something, you need to understand it first; otherwise it's as the saying goes...opinions are like assholes....  There's no better way to understand than doing it.  You will quickly learn what matters the most, and how things gradually improve with subtle changes.

 

Your questions are all fine and dandy, but what are your intentions?  Is it to involve yourself in some silly flame war, and comment without any basis of experience, or are you sincerely going to try and understand, and experiment?

 

Another thing to note.  Just because there are audible differences, it doesn't necessarily make one more preferable to another.  Differences are just that, a notable change.  It doesn't necessarily make one better than the other, that will be imprinted on you over time.  Enjoyment of music doesn't necessarily relate to good design and good execution.

post #12 of 37

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

And just to confirm, we are talking about audible differences with better PCBs, output stages, power supplies, layouts, and routing on the same chip, right?

 


Its very easy to DBT Them :) 

 

I have also been curious about the audible differences in all of these circuits that measure within 10% of eachother: 0.00003%Thd VS 0.0005%thd, for example.... people fap over it all day.

post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmartindale55 View Post

Nikongod has it right - the output stage - as it is the analog side of the equation and there are plenty of potential differences/options there including component quality, types of components used for the amplifier (discrete vs OpAmps, etc.) and so on.

 

Power supplies, assuming good filtering, shielding and capacity design, have minimal impact.  Most layout is done using PCB layout software on PCs these days, so that is largely science.

 

Truth is, most contemporary DACs using identical chips should sound very similar or identical while switching headphones or speakers (i.e., transducers) will make a much more noticeable difference.

I would agree with Ari, and most of what you said, with the exception of what I have bolded. Even though layout is done using computer assistance, there is both science and an art to proper layout.

 

http://www.tentlabs.com/InfoSupport/page35/files/Supply_decoupling.pdf

 

The importance of this was hammered into me last night by an experience I had while working on a tube preamp. Layout errors in the PSU caused over 50mV of ripple on the heater supplies. This was cured by correcting these errors, with no parts changes... ripple went down to where I couldn't really see anything on the scope.
 

post #14 of 37

Agree with Pars,  layout is an art, not science.

 

I am aware of what I believe to be the schematic of a very low noise regulator for a clock.  The schematic is crazy simple.  The art in it is that it is all in the parts selection and the layout of the PCB.  And if I'd never seen the end board, I would *never* have laid it out the way the designer did.  And PCB software would never have either.

post #15 of 37

autorouting software is useless in analog board layout - and not too good for the relatively low level of digital complexity in audio DACs - Intelligent parts placements, circuit engineering designer overseeing the layout, often willingness to do a few board spins during the development process as system interactions and measurements show you what's really happening with your circuit and layout and case, module, wiring harness, I/O connector, ps entry, grounding, ... lots of possible  interactions

 

this should be guided by engineering principles - but while experience helps the only way to get better results is by by measuring and allowing for changing everything to meet some spec - you'll never get to "perfect"

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