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[Review] Impressions of the Sony EX1000 versus the FX700, GR10 and e-Q5 - Page 179

post #2671 of 3029


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

 

Just another example of how big expectation-bias can be, less than 1db difference is insignificant. 


Where do you get that notion from?  I've heard people say 5dB is insignificant (Tyll's latest Comply article).  Then I see studies claiming .3dB is audible.  Remember too that dB is logarithmic and we are talking about effects in complex music not test tones.

 

Btw, are you amping your phones?  I simply didn't have the muddled issues you had w/ the EX1000.  They aren't BAs but the DD is very articulate.  Most articulate DD along w/ the k3003.  I'd need to AB to know which is the better DD.

 

post #2672 of 3029
These are one of the most articulate DDs, but still falls short to a good BA.

The article also has samples you can use with a reference set. You really, really have to look for the difference, almost nonexistent. I suspect most won't be able to hear it, otherwise placebo is a big factor here. .3 can be audible, but not for most, I'll imagine you really have a golden ear if you can. Even then, it just doesnt add up to the claims some have made here.
Edited by Inks - 4/19/12 at 2:10am
post #2673 of 3029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

These are one of the most articulate DDs, but still falls short to a good BA.
The article also has samples you can use with a reference set. You really, really have to look for the difference, almost nonexistent. I suspect most be able to hear it, placebo is a big factor here. .3 can be audible, but not for most, I'll imagine you really have a golden ear if you can. Even then, it just doesnt add up to the claims some have made here.

Falls short to a good BA?
How good are we talking about?
It's unfair to generalize all dynamic-type transducers as inferior to a ba-design when it comes to --
I'm a believer that certain DD have matched high-end BAs in term of "articulation" of details.
The tf-10 is a great example of a BA that is inferior to the ex1000 in that area- even from a layman's view.
post #2674 of 3029

In my case I don't think it's placebo effect and also to my comrades here.. the ex600 cables sound very much inferior to the ex1000 cables.. but that's just me

post #2675 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

Even then, it just doesnt add up to the claims some have made here.

That's for sure.  A lot of what we split hairs about falls into the nth degree of subtlety which often takes on a life of its own.  Placebo is real, like thinking the metal EX1000 plug is better constructed than the rubber EX600 plug.  Still, it's nice to see the measurements and also have my ohm measurements somewhat corroborated.  It's so small you worry about the precision and accuracy of the measuring device and the effects of temperature differential.  Who knows, maybe some of us are less crazy than they thought we were, or not.  tongue_smile.gif

 

post #2676 of 3029

 

Originally Posted by Sil3nce 

Falls short to a good BA? 
How good are we talking about?
Underdamped, wide bandwith BA. ER4S and CK10 are good examples, though even budget BAs like the HF5 and PFEs also have better transients and imaging, both of which I consider among the best in their price class. 
It's unfair to generalize all dynamic-type transducers as inferior to a ba-design when it comes to --
Just saying it how it is, there just isn't a dynamic that is fast enough to compete with a BA like the ER4s or CK10 in imaging. Dynamic transducers are simply not rigid enough, their frequency and air output is more loose, that is why they are peakier and generally have more bass.Sennheisser was able to overcome this weakness in the headphone world by making the whole motor more rigid with the ring-radiator technology, but something similar has yet to happen in IEMs. Micro drivers are the fastest dynamics out there because of their light weight, but lack the bandwidth. Sony's use of crystal polymer films isn't that innovative and actually isn't new at all as they had used it before, just renamed it for marketing. I think there still can be potential in general reference performance in dynamics, just isn't happening yet. 
I'm a believer that certain DD have matched high-end BAs in term of "articulation" of details.The tf-10 is a great example of a BA that is inferior to the ex1000 in that area- even from a layman's view.
The TF10 is inferior to the EX1000 in transparency and details. Crossovers are a tricky business and tend to do more harm than good most of the time, there are exceptions of course. TF10s are a good example of how messy a crossover design can be, though it's transients might of still been better than the EX1000s. TF10s are a good example of the general v-shaped sound most think of, EX1000s is still far from that, though it's sound is of that nature. 

 

 


Edited by Inks - 4/19/12 at 2:45am
post #2677 of 3029

I was always under the impression the V-shape sound is represented by prominent bass and treble which overshadows its mid range. I didn't find the EX1000 V-shaped at all in this respect. Its treble was overbearing for me, however its bass was in no way intruding and its mid range was not recessed.
 

post #2678 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

I was always under the impression the V-shape sound is represented by prominent bass and treble which overshadows its mid range. I didn't find the EX1000 V-shaped at all in this respect. Its treble was overbearing for me, however its bass was in no way intruding and its mid range was not recessed.
 

 

Same.  It was just a narrow treble peak too, though significant enough for me.

post #2679 of 3029
What a fun and interesting debate, and I always enjoy reading Inks thoughts on frequency response and how that affects what we hear, so I thought I'd give my unsolicited 2 cents.

I can certainly understand and agree with the need to base evaluations off the neutral graph target (especially with sources and amps) and that the closer to flat, the easier it will be to pick out details. However I do have to say in my experience, I find that increased speed from BA's and, in the case of the DBA-02 (I have not heard the ck10 but have read they are somewhat similar), the flatter frequency response doesn't necessarily do any favors in helping it in the area of instrument realism. In fact I find the DBA-02 to sound more like a "fun" phone, just tilted towards the other side of the spectrum normally associated with fun.

Being IEMs, I find that there has to be a bit of a bump in the bass to offset how tinny, lean or metallically bright they can sound to my ears, regardless of insertion depth. I realize I have a preference for a more visceral impact in bass over neutral but I do not believe this preference affects my ability to look beyond it and determine if something sounds realistic or not.

Regarding speed, I also think "fast" phones sound more fun than realistic. Having been around acoustic guitars most of my adult life, I can tell you the EX1000 and FX700 reproduce that instrument more life like than any other universals I've heard. I think the lingering sustain of the note more closely reproduces the sound an acoustic guitar makes when strummed. Also, having one of my best friends being a metal/hard rock drummer, I can tell you that the BA speed definitely makes double bass drumming sound more fun than real. At least to me, there just isn't that much instrument separation in real life. It does tend to run together a bit as the skins and kicks continue to vibrate as the next impact occurs.

Don't get me wrong, I love a fast phone with great instrument separation. It can add to the emotion or energy of a song but ultimately it's not how music sounds when you're making it, or in my case, when you're watching your friends make it b/c you're terrible at your instrument of choice.
post #2680 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunshane View Post

What a fun and interesting debate, and I always enjoy reading Inks thoughts on frequency response and how that affects what we hear, so I thought I'd give my unsolicited 2 cents.
I can certainly understand and agree with the need to base evaluations off the neutral graph target (especially with sources and amps) and that the closer to flat, the easier it will be to pick out details. However I do have to say in my experience, I find that increased speed from BA's and, in the case of the DBA-02 (I have not heard the ck10 but have read they are somewhat similar), the flatter frequency response doesn't necessarily do any favors in helping it in the area of instrument realism. In fact I find the DBA-02 to sound more like a "fun" phone, just tilted towards the other side of the spectrum normally associated with fun.
Being IEMs, I find that there has to be a bit of a bump in the bass to offset how tinny, lean or metallically bright they can sound to my ears, regardless of insertion depth. I realize I have a preference for a more visceral impact in bass over neutral but I do not believe this preference affects my ability to look beyond it and determine if something sounds realistic or not.
Regarding speed, I also think "fast" phones sound more fun than realistic. Having been around acoustic guitars most of my adult life, I can tell you the EX1000 and FX700 reproduce that instrument more life like than any other universals I've heard. I think the lingering sustain of the note more closely reproduces the sound an acoustic guitar makes when strummed. Also, having one of my best friends being a metal/hard rock drummer, I can tell you that the BA speed definitely makes double bass drumming sound more fun than real. At least to me, there just isn't that much instrument separation in real life. It does tend to run together a bit as the skins and kicks continue to vibrate as the next impact occurs.
Don't get me wrong, I love a fast phone with great instrument separation. It can add to the emotion or energy of a song but ultimately it's not how music sounds when you're making it, or in my case, when you're watching your friends make it b/c you're terrible at your instrument of choice.
It isn't a matter of these well-paced BAs being faster than what was meant in the recordings, it's just that the dynamics or overdamped BA tend to be a bit slower than what's intended. Listen to a Stax (I only tried the Lamba) or reference speakers (I had a good session with the ADAM S2.5A), these monitors are also with that sort of pace that equates to a better placement. Colored IEMs can still sound realistic, but it's leaning more toward a presentation that differs from the true nature of the recording. Insertion depth does matter, if you don't get an ER4S to the ear's 2nd bend, it's going to sound lean and metallic no matter what due to the resonants that occur, same applies to a lot of IEMs.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

I was always under the impression the V-shape sound is represented by prominent bass and treble which overshadows its mid range. I didn't find the EX1000 V-shaped at all in this respect. Its treble was overbearing for me, however its bass was in no way intruding and its mid range was not recessed.
 

Once again, the EX1000 has a slightly boosted bass and treble and a midrange which equates to a v-shaped response. Keyword is slight, it's mids aren't recessed like most v-shaped IEMs tend to be. I do agree, it's treble is the more obvious boost than the bass. You are coming from more bass boosted IEMs, so no surprise there. 


Edited by Inks - 4/19/12 at 12:50pm
post #2681 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunshane View Post

Regarding speed, I also think "fast" phones sound more fun than realistic. Having been around acoustic guitars most of my adult life, I can tell you the EX1000 and FX700 reproduce that instrument more life like than any other universals I've heard. I think the lingering sustain of the note more closely reproduces the sound an acoustic guitar makes when strummed. Also, having one of my best friends being a metal/hard rock drummer, I can tell you that the BA speed definitely makes double bass drumming sound more fun than real. At least to me, there just isn't that much instrument separation in real life. It does tend to run together a bit as the skins and kicks continue to vibrate as the next impact occurs.
Don't get me wrong, I love a fast phone with great instrument separation. It can add to the emotion or energy of a song but ultimately it's not how music sounds when you're making it, or in my case, when you're watching your friends make it b/c you're terrible at your instrument of choice.

 

Exactly my opinion as well. wink.gif

 

In all the IEMs I own, the ones which reproduced instruments most naturally are FX700 and ASG-1 (both big dynamic drivers). FX700 for example render cymbals like no other IEM. ASG-1 (with filters on) sound very natural from top to bottom despite the forward vocals (drums are so nice, they roll naturally).

 

My SE535Ltd may sound less natural (extreme seperation, very fast treble, ultra-detailed mids) but are providing a bright and fun sound which I enjoy immensely for pop, jazz (typically music with no need for a big soundstage).

 

When you accept the fact that realism is not always as sacred as purists tend to think, you learn to appreciate different signatures.

 

post #2682 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

 

 

 

Once again, the EX1000 has a slightly boosted bass and treble and a midrange which equates to a v-shaped response. Keyword is slight, it's mids aren't recessed like most v-shaped IEMs tend to be. I do agree, it's treble is the more obvious boost than the bass. You are coming from more bass boosted IEMs, so no surprise there. 

 

Do you think the Sony 7550 is a mid centric phone or also V shaped as the EX1000 but with greater mid presence?

post #2683 of 3029

It's sad to hear the ex1000 continually emphasized as "V-shaped". I don't even want to know what the fx-700s are considered then.

VVVVV

 

post #2684 of 3029

.
 


Edited by music_4321 - 4/19/12 at 5:16pm
post #2685 of 3029

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

It's sad to hear the ex1000 continually emphasized as "V-shaped". I don't even want to know what the fx-700s are considered then.

VVVVV

 

 According to joker's review, the EX1000 has slight emphasis toward the top of the midrange. That's how I hear them.

 

 

 

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