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[Review] Impressions of the Sony EX1000 versus the FX700, GR10 and e-Q5 - Page 177

post #2641 of 2984

 

Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

I think Selenium was referring to someone else, not you.

I know, but I'll admit I got a bit caught in that too. 

 

Yes, I agree that forum should be used more but, by the same token, I can't help but feel that you place too much importance in these seemingly objective aspects of audio, specially in the last few months -- this is not a criticism but an observation. I get the impression that graphs have practically been dictating how good/bad an IEM sounds to you. I have to wonder why hardly any phone out there has a (near) flat freq response -- no, not everyone is a basshead or wants a 'fun' (read: V-shaped) sounding phone.
 

They really haven't been dictating how an IEM sounds to me, but they make a whole of sense to me. There are several IEMs out there that I highly rate that haven't been graphed at all like the rev.1 GR07 and Monoprice 8320. Hardly every IEM out there is flat because it's much easier to make a colored IEM, with dynamics you always have to find a way to make the driver as rigid as possible without compromising transient speed and that takes money and time. 


In that link we get the following: "MDR-EX1000's frequency response is not flat. Rather, it is V-shaped; a slight emphasis on bass & treble"

 

What I find interesting is that some people will complain about the Sony's upper mids/lower treble peak -- fine. Several people have also complained about the bass being too lean -- fine. And here (in the link you provided) we have someone saying the EX1000s are V-shaped, even when he says there's "a slight emphasis". While I've seen several people complain about the upper mids/lower treble peak, I've not yet seen anyone complain about a bass emphasis.

 

Most people that come to head-fi are bought up with stuff that's well boosted in the bass and have bass lenient preferences. Even manufacturers are getting carried away with bass emphasis, only very few are flat or close to it. I had been wondering if the EX1000s subbass was comprising midrange clarity/detail as I was getting more of that with the rev1 GR07 but I'll say the bass overall is more present than the Vsonic as joker had told me a while back. It's still fairly close to flat, a LOT more than most v-shaped IEMs that are way more boosted on both ends. I think that's also the reason why the v-shaped moniker is frowned upon,, because most IEMs with such a response are very very colored, the Sony's case on the other hand is slight. Joker and I also concluded that the EX1000 was v-shaped as well in a face to face chat, but the keyword was slight. 

 

Perhaps my ears are not as sophisticated as I'd like to think and, specifically in the case of the EX1000's bass, to say that the Sonys are V-shaped seems just wrong, or wrong when compared to how instruments, specially acoustic and electric bass, sound in real life. The graph may say there's "a slight bass emphasis" --though I really have to wonder whether such measurements were obtained under perfect conditions-- but my ears don't. Perhaps a flat freq curve just doesn't represent accurately what we hear in the real world. I'm not talking about flat being necesarily boring, dull or clinical, but just wrong, unnatural & unrealistic -- close, perhaps, but not close enough to the real thing.

 

Again this isn't v-shaped in the most common sense it's truly slight. EX1000 still sounds very realistic no doubt, because it's coloration isn't huge. The graphs do assume a good fit and the conditions should be for the most part close to what one would hear with a good seal. With a shallower seal that some users may experience, they'll be more midbass-subbass roll-off and the 9-10k region will be more emphasized. A flat frequency response is one that compromises the least, the CK10 has a flatter bass and thus has more bass detail and a bit more midrange realism. Where flat gets very tricky is in the treble, I think a dip is truly needed around 6-9k because of our ear's sensitivity and the IEM's nature. For bass I do think a slight boost is needed at times, ideally I wish the EX1000's had slightly less when I compare it to the CK10, but it does compensate for the IEM's lack of isolation. If anything I wouldn't decrease the EX1000's bass if I couldn't get more isolation if I were the designer. 

 

The EX1000 is a great phone, but not perfect, and I personally described the differences between the Sonys and the W4s here, and came to the conclusion I'd like to keep both as they compliment each other very well, in my view.

 



 

post #2642 of 2984

Also, I'm going to assume udauda is going to graph differences of tips as well, though I do suspect he doesn't have many in hand. 

post #2643 of 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

Then maybe it means that dfkt, Joker, Mike from Headfonia and I should all go and see an otologist? I hope not.

 

I would appreciate if you guys can confirm the gentle "nose sucking" I have experienced by listening to the albums/tracks I mentioned. I am not technical but my guess is the treble sparkle in the low-mid frequency as mentioned by lee if I interpreted him correctly.

post #2644 of 2984
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostid View Post

I would appreciate if you guys can confirm the gentle "nose sucking" I have experienced by listening to the albums/tracks I mentioned. I am not technical but my guess is the treble sparkle in the low-mid frequency as mentioned by lee if I interpreted him correctly.


Inks has my EX1000 on loan, but I might try with the EX600. I take it that you're talking about the Beethoven concerto, is that correct? Can you post precise track/time info, please?


Edited by james444 - 4/10/12 at 1:57pm
post #2645 of 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post


Inks has my EX1000 on loan, but I might try with the EX600. I take it that you're talking about the Beethoven concerto, is that correct? Can you post precise track/time info, please?

Yes try the 2nd mvmt of Beethoven's triple concerto in that recording. Also try the 2nd track of the other album I posted. I suggest you try the entire length of both tracks using EX1000 when you have it back. I don't have the EX600 anymore for A/B.

 

 

EDIT: Here are the specific albums/tracks:

 

Beethoven: Triple Concerto; Romance in E minor

(2nd track) 2. Con in C, Op.56 'Triple Con': Largo - Attacca

 

Violin for Anne Rice

(2nd track) 2. Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso, for violin & orchestra in A minor,

 


 

 


Edited by lostid - 4/10/12 at 3:47pm
post #2646 of 2984

@Inks

 

Wait, you hear the EX1000 w/ more bass than the GR07?  To me the GR07 is a hair above neutral and EX1000 a hair under.

 

Apart from the treble peak(s) I have a hard time hearing the EX1000 as V, let alone U shaped.  I think this must be a fit tip difference largely.  To be clear, I never used narrow bore tips on the EX1000 or rarely any of my phones as I find them too compromised in ambient details.  Maybe if I Ety'd or DBA'd the Ex1000 fit I'd hear that similarly?

post #2647 of 2984
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostid View Post

Yes try the 2nd mvmt of Beethoven's triple concerto in that recording. Also try the 2nd track of the other album I posted. I suggest you try the entire length of both tracks using EX1000 when you have it back. I don't have the EX600 anymore for A/B.

 

 

EDIT: Here are the specific albums/tracks:

 

Beethoven: Triple Concerto; Romance in E minor

(2nd track) 2. Con in C, Op.56 'Triple Con': Largo - Attacca

 

Violin for Anne Rice

(2nd track) 2. Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso, for violin & orchestra in A minor,


Hi lostid, I tried both tracks and I can hear it cleary on my EX600. It sounds a bit like someone's got a cold and is quietly sniffing their nose every now and then.

 

But you know what? It's in the recording! When I switch to my UERM and FI-BA-SS, which are the most analytical phones I have at hand right now, I can hear the same noise even more distinctly.

 

Bottom line, your EX1000 are fine, they may just be your first IEMs that are clear and detailed enough to reveal this gentle "nose sucking".

post #2648 of 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post


Hi lostid, I tried both tracks and I can hear it cleary on my EX600. It sounds a bit like someone's got a cold and is quietly sniffing their nose every now and then.

 

But you know what? It's in the recording! When I switch to my UERM and FI-BA-SS, which are the most analytical phones I have at hand right now, I can hear the same noise even more distinctly.

 

Bottom line, your EX1000 are fine, they may just be your first IEMs that are clear and detailed enough to reveal this gentle "nose sucking".


Thanks James for confirming what I have described. Too bad I don't have the EX600 to compare, but I have listened to the Beethoven track many times using the IE80 without noticing that annoyance. In fact I am listening to it now in my office using the IE80 but unable to detect the gentle "nose sucking". Perhaps the IE80's are not revealing details as much as the EX1000 or could it possible the 'nose sucking" overpowered by the bass to be heard?

 

Again, appreciate your effort to confirm this.

post #2649 of 2984

All this talk of "nose sucking" is making me hawny. lol

 

It seems like lots of classical recordings were done in front of an audience and with more detailed 'phones it's easy to pick up on some of those sounds. Usually it's considered better to be more detailed but I can see how for these types of recordings you might want something a bit less resolving.

post #2650 of 2984

The "sniffing" (better term described by James) seems to be related to instrument (violin). I am not sure if this is "instrument sibilance" similar to vocal sibilance. It's my understanding the IEM's don't really know or care about vocals as they simply respond according to sound frequency. So when the instrument generates the sound frequency matching the vocals, the "instrument" sibilance may exist. JMHO.

 

With IE80, I have not heard this "sniffing" or vocal sibilance. Vocal sibilance actually doesn't bother me as it naturally flows with vocals.

 

 

post #2651 of 2984

All this debate on sibilance and harshness and it turns out you were just hearing a dude with a runny nose. That's funny, you gotta admit.tongue_smile.gif I can hear it with my TF10 by the way, just in the short Amazon sample.

post #2652 of 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selenium View Post

All this debate on sibilance and harshness and it turns out you were just hearing a dude with a runny nose. That's funny, you gotta admit.tongue_smile.gif I can hear it with my TF10 by the way, just in the short Amazon sample.


LOL. It happens when the phones are cold. wink_face.gif

 

post #2653 of 2984

 

Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

@Inks

 

Wait, you hear the EX1000 w/ more bass than the GR07?  To me the GR07 is a hair above neutral and EX1000 a hair under.

 

Apart from the treble peak(s) I have a hard time hearing the EX1000 as V, let alone U shaped.  I think this must be a fit tip difference largely.  To be clear, I never used narrow bore tips on the EX1000 or rarely any of my phones as I find them too compromised in ambient details.  Maybe if I Ety'd or DBA'd the Ex1000 fit I'd hear that similarly?

EX1000s bass is more boosted than what I remember, though I was listening to bassier IEMs at the time I first heard it. To be fair, haven't ABXed but it does seem as such and joker told me it does as well. 

 

EX1000 isn't below neutral at all IME, fairly close to neutral but definitely not below despite sounding this way at times due to the treble (ER4S as benchmark of bass closest to neutral). EX1000s bass is proper in presence, but it is boosted, it adds texture, but it does mask a bit of details compared to a flatter IEM like the CK10. 

 

V-shaped is the Sony house sound for a lot of their products, check out the latest EX85 review of that blog, the response isn't as close to neutral but there are lots of similarities. These are probably one of the few IEMs with such a response that's closest to neutral. Check out the TF10 review by the same user, that's your typical highly colored v-shaped sound. 

 

Tip comparison of the EX1000 by the same user (very nice read). All in all as long as you aren't using Ety triflanges or Comply foams, the response hardly changes with tips (no surprise there as I heard those effects). Notice that the EX90s sleeve which are wide bore do add more extension, which would add ambience, air, etc. But they do make them dip after 10k compare to the others, so it's not really an improvement I'll say more like a different approach to the very high treble. You mask some details after 10k to add a bit more detail in the very high treble, vice versa. EX1000s were tuned with Sony Hybrids, so it's no surprise they sound just as good as other tips with them, I'm sure Sony didn't overlook wide-bore tips as they used to offer those in past flagships. 

 

 


Edited by Inks - 4/12/12 at 7:19pm
post #2654 of 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

ER4S has less bass than EX1000 but I don't think the ER4S is reference neutral either.  UERM is more neutral and present than both IMHO.  

 

James how do you feel the UERM bass presence compares to how you heard the EX1000?

 

TF10 is V-Shaped, HJE900 as well, EX1000 never got that impression.  Sony does more than V shape so that's not the best argument.  7550, V6, Z1000, CD2000/3000, SA5000, R10, Qualia.  

 

I do not recall the EX1000s bass response hiding any details and thought it was the most detailed DD I had heard in an IEM at the time.  Bass boom would have masked the detail I was hearing.  If it's not a tip issue must be source or ears then.  The GR07 has the extra bass you describe in the EX1000 for me so we just hear the two differently I guess.  

 

I also diagree about the tips, every manufacturer tunes w/ their tips, doesn't mean they will not perform better w/ alternatives.  Sony uses the same tips for most if not all their IEMs, not just flagships.  It's economics, not sound dictating that.  If your theory was correct, tip rolling would always be detrimental.  There is nothing about Sony that makes them more special in how we should view their supplied tips compared to anyone else.

 

My 2 cents, YMMV.    

post #2655 of 2984

 

Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post


ER4S has less bass than EX1000 but I don't think the ER4S is reference neutral either.  UERM is more neutral and present than both IMHO.  

 

James how do you feel the UERM bass presence compares to how you heard the EX1000?

 

TF10 is V-Shaped, HJE900 as well, EX1000 never got that impression.  Sony does more than V shape so that's not the best argument.  7550, V6, Z1000, CD2000/3000, SA5000, R10, Qualia.  

 

I do not recall the EX1000s bass response hiding any details and thought it was the most detailed DD I had heard in an IEM at the time.  Bass boom would have masked the detail I was hearing.  If it's not a tip issue must be source or ears then.  The GR07 has the extra bass you describe in the EX1000 for me so we just hear the two differently I guess.  

 

I also diagree about the tips, every manufacturer tunes w/ their tips, doesn't mean they will not perform better w/ alternatives.  Sony uses the same tips for most if not all their IEMs, not just flagships.  It's economics, not sound dictating that.  If your theory was correct, tip rolling would always be detrimental.  There is nothing about Sony that makes them more special in how we should view their supplied tips compared to anyone else.

 

My 2 cents, YMMV.    

ER4S is pretty much flat, those who measure various IEMs and do monitoring pretty much establish it as such for a reason. Get it deep into your ear's 2nd bend and you have all the rumble and presence you need, it's just so easy to misjudge it as way below neutral bass with over 90% of the high end stuff out there having boosted bass. I think you are misinterpreting your judgement of preferred levels close to neutral rather than what's truly neutral in relation to the recording. I like the CK10's bass levels more than the EX1000s as well, as it highly shows the stuff the EX1000 is hiding since it's closer to neutral. 

 

Of course there are always exceptions but there is a pattern. The EX line with the EX90, EX85, EX310-300,500-510, 700, etc. all have an overall similar house sound with the latest being the closest to neutral but still showing a very slight bass-treble emphasis. EX1000s don't change much with tips really, unless you are using some ridiculous tips like the Complys. Our perceptions are differ, we are looking at it differently. A V-shaped response isn't always bloated like the HJE900s or even the TF10s case, these are an example of that. 

 

Not sure if I remember, but did you hear my GR07 or joker's? There's a difference between the two. 

 

Sony for their most part does some research though I assume, I would expect that with something like Monster, a company that's all flash with little function. I will say economics did play a role for the tip decision, but are wide bore tips like with the old EX90s really more expensive to manufacture? Don't think so if anything those probably would've been easier on their wallet, but the ends are what truly matters, it's tuned based on those Hybrid tips. Either way, the acoustics of the EX1000 aren't that big with tips differences, which IMO is huge plus. 

 


Edited by Inks - 4/12/12 at 10:12pm
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