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The subjective element in evaluating hardware, or: Mindful hearing versus mindless hearing.

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 

It's no secret that evaluating audiophile hardware - and sharing the experience - is very difficult and contentious. I am still fascinated by the variety of views on IEM's (my personal main fix for music due to my schedule, living arrangements, and history with IEM's as stage monitoring devices) for instance - how people claim wildly varying sound profiles for the exact same hardware. 

 

Listening through my new SE353's I noticed that a key element of the listening experience is often neglected, even though it is a key element for the enjoyment of sound: listening as an intentional act of the mind.

 

We often pretend that the experience of music is an objective one, that somehow, if only you had the best hardware, you should automatically get the best music experience. That's an unsurprising attitude given our consumer culture, but it also gets the reality of the sensory and experiential (or for the liberal arts types among you - phenomenological) experience wrong.

 

Listening to music is an active process. We hear the sounds, but we decode them, consume them, enjoy them only in a more or less active process. I sometimes find myself in a hurry, listening to music just in the background. Invariably, in those moments, I tend to turn up the volume and tend to favor hardware that is less flat, more bassy, more rich. I want the hardware to make up for my lack of mindful attention.

The again, when I truly have time and pay attention to the music, actively participate in its unfolding, I prefer more balanced hardware, because I want to be able to experience the music differently every time by shifting my attention and awareness between the various instruments, voices, etc.

 

I think we could liken this difference to reading the news on the Huffington Post or Drudge Report (the content doesn't matter - the form does) versus a plain news reader like Instapaper or even just a plain text file. In the former, we rely on the presentation to pre-process the source for us when we are not interested in investing a lot of attention and processing into decoding the meaning - when we want to consume mindlessly. In the latter case, a mindful experience is necessary.

 

So, perhaps we should add a new dimension to both hardware evaluation and listening education: the mindfulness with which we plan on enjoying the music. There's nothing wrong with a set of headphones for keeping you good company as you work and can't pay attention. But much disappointment would be spared if people weren't expecting such a 'listening aid' from hardware that's only supposed to offer you a canvas for your own explorations. 

Similarly, I think the audiophile community pays too little attention to teaching the art of listening, and educating people who want more out of their music about how to do it - buying a Ferrari doesn't make you Michael Schumacher, buying an expensive golf club doesn't make you Tiger Woods... We should emphasize that listening is an active process, something that can be learned as well.

post #2 of 40

I don't have much to add, but I just felt I'd bump it as it deserves further discussion. I certainly agree that people focus too much on expecting the physical side of audio to do everything for them. 

post #3 of 40
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the bump.

As I'm listening to Radiohead's The King of Limbs and talked to friends about the record the last few days I felt very much emboldened in my sentiment. Like the record or not, it demands attention to decipher. No hardware will ever do that for you.

And I'm also glad I have a small collection of headphones and IEM's to use - my wife is glad I don't blast the same 37 minutes of music at her for days, and I can use the different phones to familiarize myself with different aspects of the music, which helps tremendously with listening on any other piece.

 

Now since the point of my post was to focus attention to attentive, mindful listening: any experiences and ideas on how to best do that that are worth sharing?

post #4 of 40

What you've given is a hypothesis, albeit one I think is worth investigating. To give it scientific weight you have to somehow make it yield practical results. For example, if you can teach someone to listen to five conversations at once, then the concept of mindful listening might have some weight. Or if you can teach someone to hear differences between, say, cables. I'm not saying this because I want you to give proof, just letting you know what the majority of people on this sub-forum expect of you before they even contemplate your ideas.

 

You find fault in materialistic audiophiles, but with your hypothesis I find far worse fault in the people who presume it is easy to disprove things like cables by the type of DBT's generally done for audio.

 

I know the variations of mindfulness taught, and seen people try to learn it one on one or through books. I think for most people, trying to learn it from reading a book or a forum is pointless, or even worse than not trying. Most people's concept of mindfulness, attention, or focus, is to strain to sense, and they are self-hypnotized by their preconceived notion. When they learn one on one from someone, they can stop deceiving themselves, instead possibly just be deceived by the teacher :). There are very good reasons why people today don't sense things mindfully, and simply telling them to on a forum isn't likely to work.

post #5 of 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by f.duane View Post

...how people claim wildly varying sound profiles for the exact same hardware. 

 

And where is a problem with that? We don't have the same ears and taste.

 

I'm not an audiophile, but I can enjoy music only on headphones "I" like.

 

Besides, why on earth all "reference" and "hi-end" headphones sound different? Where is that perfection?

post #6 of 40

For sure, it won't change anybody automatically. It might spur a few people to look further into it themselves, however, which is about as much as you can do, really :) I disagree with the assertion that reading a book won't help, provided it's an effective book, and the person has the right motivation, background, and willpower to stick with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt View Post

There are very good reasons why people today don't sense things mindfully, and simply telling them to on a forum isn't likely to work.

post #7 of 40

The problem with self-help books is that it's hard to separate fact from fiction when you can't question the person teaching you face to face, instead you have to read cover to cover where the author guides you with a carrot in front of your face. I had read many supposed self-help books, and most of them just confuse the reader with infinite propositions without providing any proven data. The ridiculous promotion of ayahuasca is a case in point, it wouldn't have been popularized at all without idiot authors guffing the same false promises. I only take seriously books written prior to 1950, can't stand modern books.

post #8 of 40

I agree that musical experience is heightened with sustained, devoted attention.  Especially in this age of endless distraction, 140 character thoughts and attention spans of infant squirrels.  But I always thought that mindfulness was about overcoming the need for sensual, worldly and physical pleasures.  The pleasure of music has been directly linked to the activation of dopamine circuits in the ventral striatum, which has been implicated in the pleasurable aspect of every drug of abuse.  Not exactly the stuff of enlightened detachment.

post #9 of 40
Thread Starter 

There's nothing wrong with the subjective experience of music - nothing at all. My point is that we are in a bad cycle if we don't recognize the importance of subjective experience. By the way, that's a conceptual argument - not an empirical one.

 

The cycle goes like this: we're trying to objectively describe an (inherently subjective) experience, but realize we're running into trouble because people describe very different experience of the same hardware. As well-trained positivists we decide to objectify the experience, using all kinds of graphs and whatnot to create an objective reference of the hardware - still assuming that the experience is passive. Now the fight begins over what this objectively described experience is supposed to be like. Unfortunately nothing is won from a phenomenological point of view, because the experiencing is an act, not a passive exposure.

 

I'm not advocating 'self-help' books, but I suspect that 'holistic' description of hardware, e.g. reviews that describe how one listens to music and experiences particular music with standardized hardware, are educational in the sense that I indicated. I, for example, have had success in teaching my little brother by describing to him what I heard using his piece of garbage, boom-box-over-the-ear and some Grado SR80's. But to do that I first had to listen with him to the piece of music on speakers together and talk about it, so we were able to identify the same musical elements. 

 

So, all I'm saying is that the objective, 'scientific' (the better word would be positivist), description of hardware is perfectly good, healthy, worthwhile, but that it should be accompanied by a similar rigor in the description of the subjective experience.

 

*edited for spelling

post #10 of 40

I won't say your propositions are wrong, but just want to make sure you know you are suggesting people consider new propositions, and some of those people, especially in this sub-forum, have the exact opposite approach. Namely "you give me dbt or not true".

post #11 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post

I won't say your propositions are wrong, but just want to make sure you know you are suggesting people consider new propositions, and some of those people, especially in this sub-forum, have the exact opposite approach. Namely "you give me dbt or not true".

 

Well, listening to music is supposed to be fun.  Its done for enjoyment.  You don't need much science just for that.  If you're deciding what to buy to help you enjoy your music then science will help you to pick what's best for your tastes and help you do it for cheaper.  I maintain that its better for your wallet to apply some basic skepticism and scientific knowledge to you decision making process but I can't say its morally necessary.

 

When you're writing a review, whether formal or informal, or offering recommendations its different.  If you're giving advice to other people you need to do your best to be objective.  The rigorousness of the methodology needs to be proportional to the potential differences between different pieces of gear.  Output transducers are known to be very obviously different from each other through both measurements and listening tests.  Therefore I can take a headphone review from a rabid cable believer with only a small grain or salt.  Amps measure slightly differently but are less often identifiable in blind tests and some amps have intentional colorations.  This means that claims about the "sound" of an amp should be taken with a few more grains of salt.  Any "review" of a cable needs extensive measurements and listening tests for me to take it seriously at all.

 

This basically boils down to the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  In the same way that I will simply take someone's word that they own a dog I will simply take someone's word that a particular headphone is dark or bright until I come across disconfirming evidence.  If someone makes grand sweeping claims about the "sound" of an amp then maybe they're right.  To extend the pet analogy, some people have uncommon pets.  I have a parrot.  Here's some evidence.  If you question it, I can provide more on demand.  Someone claiming a boutique cable is sonicly superior to a cheap competently made cable (e.g. Monoprice) might as well be claiming they own a dragon or a unicorn.  I'm going to want pictures, x-rays, tissue sample, and DNA tests before I believe you.

 

All this is my rambling way of saying even hard-nosed skeptics like me don't always say, "you give me dbt or not true".

post #12 of 40

With all your caveats I don't think you like more than 10% of subjective impressions on head-fi. You and I agree that it's hard to find good evidence, and I bet our personal ratios of proven fact/theories is very similar. But where we disagree is wherein lies the responsibility to try to bring in objectivity. You think that first and foremost the reviewers have that responsibility. I think the readers have that responsibility. The reason why I feel that way is because I think of all the snippets of subjective impressions as data gathering. If we constantly demand people to "give proof" whenever they share impressions that you believe require proof, then many will choose not to share the impressions. It makes it harder to gather information with skeptics constantly barging in demanding proof.

post #13 of 40

I wouldn't be much of a skeptic if I didn't think the reader needed to exercise some responsibility in evaluating claims, and I don't.  I'm just saying that anyone who labels their thoughts a review or or offers a firm recommendation needs to exercise some more responsibility than if they are simply posting an impression.

post #14 of 40

Why more responsibility? Isn't this a hobby, like sewing?

post #15 of 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt View Post

Why more responsibility? Isn't this a hobby, like sewing?


 

Reviews ultimately comes back to people looking for honesty on products they're considering spending their money on.  Many people I presume would hope a review is done with scrutiny as to prevent any potential to mislead them.  If someone labels it an impression or thoughts then it doesn't seem to carry the connotations a review does.  I think that's what maverickronin is getting at, though I could be wrong.

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